VW 508 and api sp spec for lspi

[Jetta03]

I've been reading up on lspi on di engines now for a bit and also considering oil choices on my Audi B9 S4. Is there a VW 508 spec oil that is also API SP rated for lspi protection? If not, then what about a good VW504 oil that is also rated API SP?

I'm using the liquimoly top tec 6200 with no issues so far, but as I said I'm concerned about lspi on these engines.

Cheers

 

[MParr]

I've been reading up on lspi on di engines now for a bit and also considering oil choices on my Audi B9 S4. Is there a VW 508 spec oil that is also API SP rated for lspi protection? If not, then what about a good VW504 oil that is also rated API SP?

I'm using the liquimoly top tec 6200 with no issues so far, but as I said I'm concerned about lspi on these engines.

Cheers

Forget about LSPI and API SP. European manufacturers have been doing small turbocharged GDI engines for good while.
Continue using the 508.00/509.00

 

[edyvw]

I've been reading up on lspi on di engines now for a bit and also considering oil choices on my Audi B9 S4. Is there a VW 508 spec oil that is also API SP rated for lspi protection? If not, then what about a good VW504 oil that is also rated API SP?

I'm using the liquimoly top tec 6200 with no issues so far, but as I said I'm concerned about lspi on these engines.

Cheers

S4 doesn’t have LSPI issues. LSPI affects small engines like 1.5 turbo, some 2.0. When it affects 6cyl turbo engines it is bcs. crappy aftermarket tuning.

 

[QuantumS4]

Agree with all of the others above. Keep using 508.00 and worry not. Enjoy that S4!

 

[QuantumS4]

Also if you’re curious how 508.00 does in the EA839 engine here’s a link to a UOA @ 20k miles from my 2021 S4:

Dealer VW508.00 0w-20 / 9,705mi OCI / 19,960mi / 2021 Audi S4 EA839 3.0 Turbo

This is the only UOA I've done so far on my 2021 Audi S4 Premium Plus with the EA839 3.0 "hot-vee" single turbo (not supercharged) v6. I did Audi care for this vehicle so this is VW/Audi 0w-20 508.00 spec oil. This is driven mostly highway with some high-speed rural back road driving mixed in...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[kschachn]

Also if you’re curious how 508.00 does in the EA839 engine here’s a link to a UOA @ 20k miles from my 2021 S4:

Dealer VW508.00 0w-20 / 9,705mi OCI / 19,960mi / 2021 Audi S4 EA839 3.0 Turbo

This is the only UOA I've done so far on my 2021 Audi S4 Premium Plus with the EA839 3.0 "hot-vee" single turbo (not supercharged) v6. I did Audi care for this vehicle so this is VW/Audi 0w-20 508.00 spec oil. This is driven mostly highway with some high-speed rural back road driving mixed in...

bobistheoilguy.com

That’s about how the engine is doing under your specific operating conditions more than it is the oil.

 

[QuantumS4]

That’s about how the engine is doing under your specific operating conditions more than it is the oil.

It’s about the oil as much as the usage. An unsuitable oil would not perform well under any usage pattern.

 

[kschachn]

It’s about the oil as much as the usage. An unsuitable oil would not perform well under any usage pattern.

What in the spectrographic analysis shows how well the oil performs? Any oil with sufficient MOFT and other attributes would give the same result. It doesn't show anything that's unique for this oil.

For example I use an oil with either VW 504 00 or BMW Longlife-04 approval, the analysis would not show how 508 00 is any better or worse. It is adequate to prevent excessive wear, at least as far as a $30 analysis will show.

 

[930.engineering]

.
I agree - forget about all API. Except for VW 508 00. I'd run VW 504 00 instead, eg M1 ESP 5W-30.
.

 

[QuantumS4]

What in the spectrographic analysis shows how well the oil performs? Any oil with sufficient MOFT and other attributes would give the same result. It doesn't show anything that's unique for this oil.

For example I use an oil with either VW 504 00 or BMW Longlife-04 approval, the analysis would not show how 508 00 is any better or worse. It is adequate to prevent excessive wear, at least as far as a $30 analysis will show.

You’re not wrong in the above. However, I’m not sure where I made any statement of superiority or uniqueness of any 508.00 or any other oil …

I was providing an anecdotal data point that 508.00 is acceptable in the EA839 engine. But, hey, thanks for trying to kick up a good old fashioned oil fight.

 

[kschachn]

You’re not wrong in the above. However, I’m not sure where I made any statement of superiority or uniqueness of any 508.00 or any other oil …

I was providing an anecdotal data point that 508.00 is acceptable in the EA839 engine. But, hey, thanks for trying to kick up a good old fashioned oil fight.

No problem. Glad to help out someone new.

 

[edyvw]

.
I agree - forget about all API. Except for VW 508 00. I'd run VW 504 00 instead, eg M1 ESP 5W-30.
.

I would not allow people to park in my driveway with 0W20 in that engine.

 

[QuantumS4]

I would not allow people to park in my driveway with 0W20 in that engine.

I’m curious: the sentiment above is common it seems across this forum, but I’ve seen nothing but very good anecdotal performance of 508.00 oils in 1.4/1.5 TSI, 2.0 TSI and 3.0 engines in UOAs (while agreeing kschachn’s point this is certainly not everything, if 508.00 oils were going to trash an engine there would be at least a flipping SHRED of wear metals present)

What I’m saying is I’ve never seen any data backing up this position and I have seen at least some anecdotal data that goes against it so what substantiates this view? Help me understand your experience edyvw because I’ve been reading on this forum for 20 years before joining and I’ve always thought your posts were well informed and data driven so now I think I’m missing something.

Unless that was a sarcastic comment that went right over my head …

 

[edyvw]

I’m curious: the sentiment above is common it seems across this forum, but I’ve seen nothing but very good anecdotal performance of 508.00 oils in 1.4/1.5 TSI, 2.0 TSI and 3.0 engines in UOAs (while agreeing kschachn’s point this is certainly not everything, if 508.00 oils were going to trash an engine there would be at least a flipping SHRED of wear metals present)

What I’m saying is I’ve never seen any data backing up this position and I have seen at least some anecdotal data that goes against it so what substantiates this view? Help me understand your experience edyvw because I’ve been reading on this forum for 20 years before joining and I’ve always thought your posts were well informed and data driven so now I think I’m missing something.

Unless that was a sarcastic comment that went right over my head …

We had NUMEROUS discussions about this topic.
Also, wherever oil grade is not related to emission regulations or CAFE, choice of engineers is VW504.00/507.00.
Take into consideration that VW engineers could not get away with VW5008.00 and VW504.00 for RS6 engine, so had to utilize VW511.00.
UOA is not analysis of an engine. It is analysis of an oil. You did not have TAN value in your analysis, not to mention that $30 analysis won't tell you much unless you are looking for some trend.
Also, engines don't disintegrate immediately. They die slow death using oil that might be inappropriate for longevity of that engine. The question is what VW thinks is acceptable lifetime of that engine, or exploatation. For short distances, engines not acheiving operating temperatures, that oil might be actually better choice. But than, Toyota Prius is also better choice for that type of exploatation.
Driving S4 the way it should be driven, well....

 

[twX]

Some of the latest ACEA standards now include the same LSPI test as API SP. They are ACEA C6 and C7 (0W-20 and 0W-16 low-SAPS), and A7/B7 (5W-30 high SAPS). They also added the GDI timing chain stretch test, a turbo deposit test, and made the valvetrain wear requirement more stringent.

You may be able to find some oils that meet the VW standard as well as one of those newer ACEA standards.

 

[edyvw]

Some of the latest ACEA standards now include the same LSPI test as API SP. They are ACEA C6 and C7 (0W-20 and 0W-16 low-SAPS), and A7/B7 (5W-30 high SAPS). They also added the GDI timing chain stretch test, a turbo deposit test, and made the valvetrain wear requirement more stringent.

You may be able to find some oils that meet the VW standard as well as one of those newer ACEA standards.

MB229.52 has LSPI test.
Take into consideration that ZDDP value has more to do in preventing LSPI than low calcium.
The whole issue started with API limiting additives like Phosphorous.

 

[QuantumS4]

We had NUMEROUS discussions about this topic.
Also, wherever oil grade is not related to emission regulations or CAFE, choice of engineers is VW504.00/507.00.
Take into consideration that VW engineers could not get away with VW5008.00 and VW504.00 for RS6 engine, so had to utilize VW511.00.
UOA is not analysis of an engine. It is analysis of an oil. You did not have TAN value in your analysis, not to mention that $30 analysis won't tell you much unless you are looking for some trend.
Also, engines don't disintegrate immediately. They die slow death using oil that might be inappropriate for longevity of that engine. The question is what VW thinks is acceptable lifetime of that engine, or exploatation. For short distances, engines not acheiving operating temperatures, that oil might be actually better choice. But than, Toyota Prius is also better choice for that type of exploatation.
Driving S4 the way it should be driven, well....

Thanks for that, edyvw. You’ve confirmed my suspicions. Because there isn’t a TAN in a $30 UOA it’s worthless data and it’s much better to make your decisions by the output of forum discussions and non-cited “engineers” while being unsupported by data. I relent and apologize to the OP for hi-jacking this thread.

 

[twX]

Take into consideration that ZDDP value has more to do in preventing LSPI than low calcium.
The whole issue started with API limiting additives like Phosphorous.

Calcium has a far greater influence on LSPI than ZDDP does, at least when Ph is in the typical range of 600-900 ppm. The euro oils have only ~100 ppm more Ph than the API oils, which won't make a big difference.

The LSPI-suppressing effect of ZDDP and moly are also reduced as the oil ages and the additives break down. The upcoming ILSAC GF-7 standard will include a new LSPI test with aged oil, which will require some oils that rely more on ZDDP and moly for LPSI suppression to reduce their calcium content.

 

[edyvw]

Calcium has a far greater influence on LSPI than ZDDP does, at least when Ph is in the typical range of 600-900 ppm. The euro oils have only ~100 ppm more Ph than the API oils, which won't make a big difference.

The LSPI-suppressing effect of ZDDP and moly are also reduced as the oil ages and the additives break down. The upcoming ILSAC GF-7 standard will include a new LSPI test with aged oil, which will require some oils that rely more on ZDDP and moly for LPSI suppression to reduce their calcium content.

The primary issue behind LSPI is junk engineering or junk tunning.
However, it is indicative that limits on these additives started the LSPI issues to more extent. Except old VW 1.4 turbo/compressor engine, LSPI is not an issue among Euro engines. Though, that has to do a lot with engineering.
As for API and ILSAC, who cares.

 

[edyvw]

Thanks for that, edyvw. You’ve confirmed my suspicions. Because there isn’t a TAN in a $30 UOA it’s worthless data and it’s much better to make your decisions by the output of forum discussions and non-cited “engineers” while being unsupported by data. I relent and apologize to the OP for hi-jacking this thread.

You could order TAN.
Still, that UOA is irrelevant for this discussion.
But hey, as far as I am concerned, you could use olive oil in your engine. I already told you and won’t repeat myself bcs. you need confirmation bias, that choice of oil by VW, BMW etc. depends primarily on what legal emissions standards are applied to certain markets.