VW 504 vs Longlife-04

Joined
Nov 20, 2021
Messages
27
Location
Ontario, Canada
Hello, been visiting the forum occasionally for a few years but couldn't find much existing discussion or documentation regarding my question so I made an account.

I recently started using Pennzoil Euro LX 0W30 (VW504, C30, MB229.52) in both:
-2019 Golf GTI (EA888, VW508 sticker under hood)
-1998 BMW 540i (M62 pre-VVT, LL01/LL04 per BMW backspec)

Obviously, LX 0W30 doesn't carry any BMW specs, while the L 5W30 is LL04 approved. However, to me, I don't see any reason to buy a different oil for the BMW as they have very similar KV100°C (11.9 vs 12.1cSt) while the LX has a small advantage at 40°C (~60 vs ~70cSt) and both meet very similar ACEA and manufacturer specs. I haven't been able to find out what compromises, if any, were made to get LX to this high viscosity index. However, judging by the UOAs I found on this forum and the fact that it is approved for VW504 which many users seem to agree is one of the most demanding manufacturer specs, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be adequate for the M62.

Just wanted to hear some more knowledgeable opinions on this, as I can switch to either Euro L 5W30 or Euro 5W40 next change if there's a reason to.
 
BMW has ridiculous oxidation requirements for their specs now because they're targeting extremely long OCIs, they cut out allowing 0W30 and 0W40 in LL-01 and LL-04 during the last update, for an old M62 any oil should work fine, and I assume you're not changing the oil at ridiculous intervals anyways so any of the Euro specs is sufficient enough.
 
BMW has ridiculous oxidation requirements for their specs now because they're targeting extremely long OCIs, they cut out allowing 0W30 and 0W40 in LL-01 and LL-04 during the last update, for an old M62 any oil should work fine, and I assume you're not changing the oil at ridiculous intervals anyways so any of the Euro specs is sufficient enough.
Which isn't a bad thing considering until around 2012 the BMW oci was around 15k miles vs the current 10k.
 
BMW has ridiculous oxidation requirements for their specs now because they're targeting extremely long OCIs, they cut out allowing 0W30 and 0W40 in LL-01 and LL-04 during the last update, for an old M62 any oil should work fine, and I assume you're not changing the oil at ridiculous intervals anyways so any of the Euro specs is sufficient enough.
I see. The OCI is around 10000km/6000mi, and roughly shortened/extended depending on the type of driving the car has been doing. That's rather short so I assume any differences in oxidation resistance requirements between the specs will be made irrelevant.

By the way, is there any documentation available to consumers about what each spec demands? Or are there some industry insiders on this forum?
 
I agree on that VW 504 00 approved oil should be appropriate for your M62.
Didn't BMW even just call for old LL-98 originally? VW 504 00 is more than
likely an upgrade.
Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0W-30 = Shell Helix Ultra Professional AV-L 0W-30
is great oil, as are M1 ESP 5W-30 (w/ 504 00 and formerly also BMW LL-04) as
well as Ravenol VMP 5W-30 (still comes with both VW 504 00 and BMW LL-04).
So you can have both at the same time if it matters.
For the GTI I'd recommend using the lowest Noack available due to IVD issues.
Both M1 ESP 5W-30 (not 0W-30) and Ravenol VMP 5W-30 are superior over the
Pennzoil/Shell product, even though I'd bet Shell AV-L has been the factory fill
in my GTI. Despite VW allows using VW 508 00 0W-20 oil it didn't come with it.
.
 
BMW has ridiculous oxidation requirements for their specs now because they're targeting extremely long OCIs, they cut out allowing 0W30 and 0W40 in LL-01 and LL-04 during the last update, for an old M62 any oil should work fine, and I assume you're not changing the oil at ridiculous intervals anyways so any of the Euro specs is sufficient enough.
In cars that call for LL-01, we now use 0W30 LL-01FE.

Personally, I use Euro 5W40 in all my cars.
 
I agree on that VW 504 00 approved oil should be appropriate for your M62.
Didn't BMW even just call for old LL-98 originally? VW 504 00 is more than
likely an upgrade.
Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0W-30 = Shell Helix Ultra Professional AV-L 0W-30
is great oil, as are M1 ESP 5W-30 (w/ 504 00 and formerly also BMW LL-04) as
well as Ravenol VMP 5W-30 (still comes with both VW 504 00 and BMW LL-04).
So you can have both at the same time if it matters.
For the GTI I'd recommend using the lowest Noack available due to IVD issues.
Both M1 ESP 5W-30 (not 0W-30) and Ravenol VMP 5W-30 are superior over the
Pennzoil/Shell product, even though I'd bet Shell AV-L has been the factory fill
in my GTI. Despite VW allows using VW 508 00 0W-20 oil it didn't come with it.
.
If I remember correctly, the owner's manual specs some conventional weights like 5W30 and 15W40 for cold/warm temperature ranges, with a "special oil" recommended for all climates. I presume that's LL-98 or something close to it. Following the manual, my first choice would be using an LL-01 5W30 oil but all of them are far more costly than PPE/L/LX where I live.

As for the IVD concerns, thanks for pointing me towards those oils with superior Noack. However, any Ravenol motor oil is hard to find here and M1 ESP products practically never go on sale ($65/5L) at Canadian Tire whereas the Shell euro oils are often discounted to C$34/5L under Pennzoil/QS/Motomaster brands. Even without the occasional rebate, it's practically unbeatable in terms of price and convenience. I'm going to try to find another retailer/distributor for those oils you mentioned, but if I stick to LX and have to clean the intake ports and valves a bit earlier, so be it.

Also, it's interesting you say that the 508 spec GTIs don't come filled with it, how did you determine this? I think I remember checking the dipstick with 25km on the odometer and assuming the green tint to be very faint. I only found out that isn't the case much later when I tried the OEM oil for one OCI:
 

Attachments

  • 508.jpg
    508.jpg
    147.7 KB · Views: 37
Mine didn't (Euro spec Performance, MY 2018, engine code DLBA).
Great photo showing the color quite clearly. My factory fill simply
wasn't greenish at all but uncolored to lightly amber (typical for
GTL based SHU AV-L) instead.
If it's almost half the price of M1 ESP just go with Shell/Pennzoil.
That's what I ran from (not sure if I remember correctly but doesn't
matter) 1.000 km to 2.000 km (again). Yes, I did two early changes.



In cars that call for LL-01, we now use 0W30 LL-01FE.

Just wondering, hope that's on cars only where BMW allows for LL-
01 FE. I'm pretty sure you know that LL-01 and LL-01 FE aren't fully
compatible due to LL-01 requiring HTHS of minimum of 3.5 mPas,
while LL-01 FE allows for HTHS as low as 3.1 or 3.2 mPas. I don't
remember if and which engines do call for LL-01/LL-04 exclusively
though.
.
 
Mine didn't (Euro spec Performance, MY 2018, engine code DLBA).
Great photo showing the color quite clearly. My factory fill simply
wasn't greenish at all but uncolored to lightly amber (typical for
GTL based SHU AV-L) instead.
If it's almost half the price of M1 ESP just go with Shell/Pennzoil.
That's what I ran from (not sure if I remember correctly but doesn't
matter) 1.000 km to 2.000 km (again). Yes, I did two early changes.





Just wondering, hope that's on cars only where BMW allows for LL-
01 FE. I'm pretty sure you know that LL-01 and LL-01 FE aren't fully
compatible due to LL-01 requiring HTHS of minimum of 3.5 mPas,
while LL-01 FE allows for HTHS as low as 3.1 or 3.2 mPas. I don't
remember if and which engines do call for LL-01/LL-04 exclusively
though.
.
We don't even use LL-01 anymore. All cars that called for LL-01 can use LL-01FE, as per BMW, as far as I know.
 
We don't even use LL-01 anymore. All cars that called for LL-01 can use LL-01FE, as per BMW, as far as I know.
I wouldn't think the S62 could, heck, in the US, it never even got back-spec'd for LL-01 after the 03/00 revision, they kept it with TWS.

I'd suspect there would be several engines that, designed around the 3.5cP HTHS minimum, wouldn't be happy with going a fair bit lower. It's unfortunate they (BMW) doesn't seem to have anything like the MB BEVO site that would indicate what's appropriate and what has been back-spec'd.
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure you know that LL-01 and LL-01 FE aren't fully
compatible due to LL-01 requiring HTHS of minimum of 3.5 mPas,
while LL-01 FE allows for HTHS as low as 3.1 or 3.2 mPas.

It's min 3.0 mPas for LL-01 FE actually, while a minimum KV100 of
10.0 cSt is mandatory simultaneously.

Actually BMW doesn`t permit using LL-01 FE in older engines such
als M50, M52, M54 or M62:

TIS suitable engine oils BMW LL-01 LL-01 FE LL-04 0.jpg


TIS suitable engine oils BMW LL-01 LL-01 FE LL-04 1.jpg


TIS suitable engine oils BMW LL-01 LL-01 FE LL-04 2.jpg


TIS suitable engine oils BMW LL-01 LL-01 FE LL-04 3.jpg


.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't think the S62 could, heck, in the US, it never even got back-spec'd for LL-01 after the 03/00 revision, they kept it with TWS.

I'd suspect there would be several engines that, designed around the 3.5cP HTHS minimum, wouldn't be happy with going a fair bit lower. It's unfortunate they (BMW) doesn't seem to have anything like the MB BEVO site that would indicate what's appropriate and what has been back-spec'd.
Yes, we still have the 10/60 for those.
 
Great photo showing the color quite clearly. My factory fill simply
wasn't greenish at all but uncolored to lightly amber (typical for
GTL based SHU AV-L) instead.
I don't think the factory-fill specification requires a dye - there's no need for it since it is filled at the factory so is not likely to be mis-applied.
 
I suppose what I find a little interesting is... According to what I've read over the years, LL-04 was disallowed outside of Europe because of sulphur in the fuel. However sulphur has been at EU levels in US and Canada for a little while now. Yet, even new TIS publications continue to disallow LL-04 use in North America. Meanwhile, the story is that even though not equipped with DPF, DI engines like the N54 and N55 (why I was looking into this) would benefit from using LL-04 for superior intake valve cleanliness.

I was thinking about running LL-04 despite TIS telling me not to, but stuck with LL-01 in the end. 🤷‍♂️ If I still had my E39, I wouldn't even be thinking about LL-04 since there would be no advantage over LL-01.
 
Perhaps BMW still doesn't trust American fuels. Or they just don't care
that much for older engines. Probably a responsibility thing they'd need
to perform some costly research for and they don't want to take the effort.

I don't think the factory-fill specification requires a dye - there's no need for it since it is filled at the factory so is not likely to be mis-applied.

Negative. I've seen dozens of VW factory fill UOAs so far and they all appear
to be common VW approved oils. The majority of VW 504/507 00 fills have
been either Castrol or Shell, while all VW 508/509 00 fills have been greenish.
Why should it be different? VW and Audi don't use any special break-in oils.
 
Back
Top