Viscosity Grade recommendation for Death Valley

[OilUzer]

The only point I was making here is that you are making a downright incorrect assertion about owners manual calling for a winter oil and a different summer oil. Your original post asked the (fair) question, and I paraphrase, that if it is very, very hot outside, should that inform my choice of oil. Generally speaking, a car in proper operating condition will maintain a constant engine temperature without much impact from the ambient temperature. This makes sense, when you think about how thermostats operate in the car’s cooling system. I suppose that if a car cannot stay at an acceptably low operating temperature, the car should be turned off. That said, modern cars are tested in the arctic and in Death Valley and like places around the world. As is so often the case, if you do what the owners manual says, you’ll be fine. There are many folks on BITOG who advocate thicker oils, pointing out HTHS and MOFT advantages, and with the allegation that CAFE standards force the manufacturers to go thin on the oil at the expense of engine durability. That is an interesting and complex ongoing discussion. Another issue is that oils have an appropriate Winter rating to allow the car to start with rapid lubrication in ver cold temperatures. My strong suggestion is to think less, follow the manual and to read the responses in this thread a little more closely. You might benefit from tighter OCIs.

You keep twisting things and trying to find errors or "incorrect assertions" by dissecting and taking things out of context ... This is not a courtroom!

And

I'm really NOT interested in your opinion or strong suggestions and never want to "think less" and blindly follow an owner's manual that is different in the US (in my example Texas) than Mexico. I leave "thinking less" for you! Because I think more and ask why are the two owner's manual different? And the only logical explanation that I've learned from bitog is CAFE.

 

[burbguy82]

You keep twisting things and trying to find errors or "incorrect assertions" by dissecting and taking things out of context ... This is not a courtroom!

And

I'm really NOT interested in your opinion or strong suggestions and never want to "think less" and blindly follow an owner's manual that is different in the US (in my example Texas) than Mexico. I leave "thinking less" for you! Because I think more and ask why are the two owner's manual different? And the only logical explanation that I've learned from bitog is CAFE.

I agree, why 2 different manual recommendations.

Dont question the spec? Does not seem very BITOGish to me.

What would this place be if nerds like all of us did not argue about dumb stuff like this?=boring

Truth=the companies to whom make cars want you to buy more cars, and the common folk not to work on their own vehicle. To what end? This might be one of them. I argue the car market in Mexico is not as strong as the USA, and a requirement for sales there might still be what it used to be.............quality \ longevity, not just who has the most tamed HP or tech gadget interface microwave oven foot massaging gas pedal.

I do not think that the winter and summer oil thing is a thing anymore though.

 

[OilUzer]

...
I do not think that the winter and summer oil thing is a thing anymore though.

I agree, since most on bitog are using manly Euro 0W-40 oils to cover both extremes! No?

You know, summer is not just a season. Outside dealing with much more seasonal heat, it may mean vacations or long trips with a loaded car (kids, relatives, toys, pet, bikes, camping stuff or other things on top the car, etc.) and potentially much higher travelling speeds and you are not always on a flat land either, meaning you have to push that thing up the hills at high speeds, which means potentially much higher RPMs.
Compare that (load, speed/rpm, heat) to typical winter driving with unloaded car to work or something ...

If I am choosing an oil for the summer, I would rather use the "thicker" stuff during this time and you don't need the 0/5W either and the narrower spread oils will also have less vm (vii) and less shearing/heat. I'm also aware that another "hot" discussion over this same subject is going on in this thread ... lol

All I am saying is that the owner's manuals (outside US), will still reflect that (summer/winter). That's is most of OMs.
And I select my summer and winter oil accordingly which also aligns with the majority of the owner's manual and the old OMs in US.
However, some people (not you) like to twist, dissect and find errors ...

In my example, the new 2024 truck that someone recently (a week ago?) posted from Texas is showing 0W-20 in US owner's manual and the Mexico owner's manual for the same truck is showing 0W-20 as well as options for 5/10/15/20W-30/40/50. Now talk about thick. That may give heart attack to some bitog members.

Not saying anything is wrong with 0W-20 and for one of our cars, I'm currently using our free oil changes with 0W-20 at the dealer but next summer I will be using a "summer oil" or the Mexico OM and will be using most likely a 10W-30 or recently purchased some Euro 0/5W-40 which most likely won't be using in the winter even though it's a 0W. I can get away with a 10W any season in my area.

 

[burbguy82]

I agree, since most on bitog are using manly Euro 0W-40 oils to cover both extremes! No?

You know, summer is not just a season. Outside dealing with much more seasonal heat, it may mean vacations or long trips with a loaded car (kids, relatives, toys, pet, bikes, camping stuff or other things on top the car, etc.) and potentially much higher travelling speeds and you are not always on a flat land either, meaning you have to push that thing up the hills at high speeds, which means potentially much higher RPMs.
Compare that (load, speed/rpm, heat) to typical winter driving with unloaded car to work or something ...

If I am choosing an oil for the summer, I would rather use the "thicker" stuff during this time and you don't need the 0/5W either and the narrower spread oils will also have less vm (vii) and less shearing/heat. I'm also aware that another "hot" discussion over this same subject is going on in this thread ... lol

All I am saying is that the owner's manuals (outside US), will still reflect that (summer/winter). That's is most of OMs.
And I select my summer and winter oil accordingly which also aligns with the majority of the owner's manual and the old OMs in US.
However, some people (not you) like to twist, dissect and find errors ...

In my example, the new 2024 truck that someone recently (a week ago?) posted from Texas is showing 0W-20 in US owner's manual and the Mexico owner's manual for the same truck is showing 0W-20 as well as options for 5/10/15/20W-30/40/50. Now talk about thick. That may give heart attack to some bitog members.

Not saying anything is wrong with 0W-20 and for one of our cars, I'm currently using our free oil changes with 0W-20 at the dealer but next summer I will be using a "summer oil" or the Mexico OM and will be using most likely a 10W-30 or recently purchased some Euro 0/5W-40 which most likely won't be using in the winter even though it's a 0W. I can get away with a 10W any season in my area.

Yeah, I mean by in large, people use what they feel will suit their conditions and driving.

Of course, engineers of these things are not dumb, quite the opposite in fact. But, it is clear that viscosity stated in SOME owner manuals are geared toward fuel economy, and regulation, not so much toward longevity.

This is likely the most heated and debated topic on BITOG IMO.

You don't have to justify the choice to anyone here.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

You keep twisting things and trying to find errors or "incorrect assertions" by dissecting and taking things out of context ... This is not a courtroom!

And

I'm really NOT interested in your opinion or strong suggestions and never want to "think less" and blindly follow an owner's manual that is different in the US (in my example Texas) than Mexico. I leave "thinking less" for you! Because I think more and ask why are the two owner's manual different? And the only logical explanation that I've learned from bitog is CAFE.

Do cars in Mexico last longer on average than the same model located in the US? Please provide answer based on verifiable data, not assumptions, you know, since you’re NOT interested in opinions. Taking your claims at face value, it should not be very hard at all for you to produce data that will end this argument. #bookmarked

 

[TiGeo]

It’s still the oil temperature during operating conditions that’s going to determine which grade is needed. For example, look at TiGeo’s data when he goes racing. In his case, he saw 280*F temps. Higher ambient temps will slow the rate of oil cooling, but if he’s pushing his engine that hard and the oil is that hot, he’s not going to run a 0w20 even if he’s racing in 15*F ambient temps. It’s still the sustained high-RPM use that would drive the need for a heavier grade.

So, even with a 12* increase in your oil temps, what were they?

This.

 

[TiGeo]

The ambient certainly can and does impact oil temps on many modern vehicles and I have measured this extensively with data posted around here. But 130 deg F isn't causing a need for thicker oil under normal driving conditions.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

The ambient certainly can and does impact oil temps on many modern vehicles and I have measured this extensively with data posted around here. But 130 deg F isn't causing a need for thicker oil under normal driving conditions.

Yep. High ambients can reduce the rate of heat rejection from the oil, but that alone does not mean a thicker grade is warranted if the car’s cooling systems were designed and are operating properly.

In a poorly maintained vehicle, ALL bets are off even in good operating conditions.

 

[TomYoung]

Adding water vapor will reduce the density since the molecular weight of water (18.0152) is somewhat less than air (28.951). Water vapor has a higher heat capacity than dry air so that helps, but in any case the difference is not large. Even at 100% relative humidity at 100 F there is only 0.0432 lbs of water per lb of dry air.

This is rapidly becoming the thread from hell, but I am pretty sure you are conflating molecular weight with density. At the same time, you are comparing gaseous state and liquid state materials. Obviously gas takes up a lot more space than liquid, all other things being equal. At 100 F, you are mostly dealing with liquid water.

 

[cptbarkey]

Death Valley is about 130F.

What do you use or recommend?

Supertech 0w20 will be fine.

In general, I recommend avoiding the area until its renamed Life Valley.

 

[edyvw]

I agree, since most on bitog are using manly Euro 0W-40 oils to cover both extremes! No?

You know, summer is not just a season. Outside dealing with much more seasonal heat, it may mean vacations or long trips with a loaded car (kids, relatives, toys, pet, bikes, camping stuff or other things on top the car, etc.) and potentially much higher travelling speeds and you are not always on a flat land either, meaning you have to push that thing up the hills at high speeds, which means potentially much higher RPMs.
Compare that (load, speed/rpm, heat) to typical winter driving with unloaded car to work or something ...

If I am choosing an oil for the summer, I would rather use the "thicker" stuff during this time and you don't need the 0/5W either and the narrower spread oils will also have less vm (vii) and less shearing/heat. I'm also aware that another "hot" discussion over this same subject is going on in this thread ... lol

All I am saying is that the owner's manuals (outside US), will still reflect that (summer/winter). That's is most of OMs.
And I select my summer and winter oil accordingly which also aligns with the majority of the owner's manual and the old OMs in US.
However, some people (not you) like to twist, dissect and find errors ...

In my example, the new 2024 truck that someone recently (a week ago?) posted from Texas is showing 0W-20 in US owner's manual and the Mexico owner's manual for the same truck is showing 0W-20 as well as options for 5/10/15/20W-30/40/50. Now talk about thick. That may give heart attack to some bitog members.

Not saying anything is wrong with 0W-20 and for one of our cars, I'm currently using our free oil changes with 0W-20 at the dealer but next summer I will be using a "summer oil" or the Mexico OM and will be using most likely a 10W-30 or recently purchased some Euro 0/5W-40 which most likely won't be using in the winter even though it's a 0W. I can get away with a 10W any season in my area.

0W30 in turbo engine:

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

0W30 in turbo engine:
View attachment 229489

Question, why are you in manual mode at 4k rpm to go 80mph? Are you performing an oxidation test?

 

[edyvw]

Question, why are you in manual mode at 4k rpm to go 80mph? Are you performing an oxidation test?

Uphill, passing cars, Eisenhower Tunnel. It is much easier to go around left-lane huggers in manual mode.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Uphill, passing cars, Eisenhower Tunnel. It is much easier to go around left-lane huggers in manual mode.

Wow. Brutal.

 

[edyvw]

Wow. Brutal.

Look at ambient temperature, 70f. That is the effect of altitude. Eisenhower tunnel tops at 11,158ft.
I pushed this car in Arizona, Nevada deserts in July, and never had this oil temperature. However, hitting 260f here in CO over mountain passes is piece of cake.
Also, very effective way to get rid of IVD

 

[Chumango]

This is rapidly becoming the thread from hell, but I am pretty sure you are conflating molecular weight with density. At the same time, you are comparing gaseous state and liquid state materials. Obviously gas takes up a lot more space than liquid, all other things being equal. At 100 F, you are mostly dealing with liquid water.

Unless it is raining or really foggy, humid air is all in the gaseous state - mostly inert gas plus some water vapor - but it is all gas. At any given temperature and atmospheric pressure, gas density is a function of molecular weight. Replace some of the higher molecular weight molecules (nitrogen and oxygen) with lower molecular weight (water) and the density decreases since the average molecular weight decreases.

Given how little water vapor is present in air the density does not change much, but it does change.

 

[ZeeOSix]

If you look at the effect on the oil going through all the journal bearings, as the RPM increases, even with hardly any increased engine load, the increased shear rate of the oil inside the bearings due to RPM also increases the oil temperature of the oil flow coming out of the sides of the journal bearings. If an engine doesn't have any extra oil cooling, like an air-to-oil or coolant-to-oil cooler, the oil temp will rise with higher RPM.

Sure there is heat added to the oil due to combustion and load (especially with piston oil squirtes that absorb piston heat, which warms the oil) but there is also a lot of heat generated just from the journal bearings shearing the oil, and the higher the RPM the hotter the oil gets inside the bearings.

 

[svenson]

oiluzer,
6 years earlier , it seems that you weren't convinced the first time:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...ine-heat-and-effects-of-oil-viscosity.297737/

 

[OilUzer]

oiluzer,
6 years earlier , it seems that you weren't convinced the first time:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...ine-heat-and-effects-of-oil-viscosity.297737/

I really don't care or have time right now to read something from 6 years ago.

It might be interesting to do so but my first instinct is to question your motives. You took (wasted) time and dug up some old thread from 6 years ago to prove what?

Honestly, I clicked on the link cuz I was curios but didn't read it, since it is irrelevant. I joined bitog in 2016 and have learned a lot since then and am still learning ... Obviously not from people like you!

Btw, I have another news for you pal. People go to college and earn a master's or PhD in 6 years. Don't waste your time on pity stuff.

Long live MOFT.

 

[Jetronic]

well, I didn't want to go into a long explanation , but ring temps are always high whether the oil gets past the rings or not.. and oil is expsoed to those combustion temps repeatedly for milliseconds as long as the engine is running.. that is my point.. it is a very momentary thing but it happens repeatedly... and oil is exposed to those temps without breakdown.. if it goes past the rings, it goes out the tailpiple..

That's not exactly true is it. cause the fuel is "past the rings" to start with yet makes it into the crankcase no problem. Together with oil that has been in the combustion chamber....