In my opinion poorly designed low tension oil rings and “synthetic” oil just meeting specs that aren’t very stringent to begin with are a bad combination.
It’s been hard keeping my mouth shut for 20k miles but my test is going well…
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- Thread starter Scott S
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It’s been hard keeping my mouth shut for 20k miles but my test is going well…
Not familiar with that Honda engine, so I don't know if there's any kind of oil ring design flaw and/or oil scraping & draining problems like seen on some Toyotas that were big oil burners. Also it's unknown what oil was used in that engine. The ring pack is exposed to a very harsh high temperature environment, so maybe the oil used did fine in all other parts of the engine keeping it clean, but fell flat on its face in the ring pack environment. Not the first time someone has mentioned that the inside of the valve train looks spotless on their engine, but it started burning oil with not a ton of miles on it. Once the oil rings start collecting deposits, it just becomes worse and a run-away situation.
I went to the Amsoil Website and put in the vehicle information; seems this Honda Engine with a Turbo takes 0W-20.
This engine really needed a Synthetic 0W-30 or 5W-30
ZeeOSix, I kept looking at the Video and saying to myself, why is this engine so clean and the Ring Packs looked the way they did and they were not Moving. That is when I went to the Amsoil Site and looked up the 2019 Honda Accord with that Turbo Engine.
0W-20 oil
For the 2019 Honda Accord 2.0T with a turbo engine, the recommended engine oil is fully synthetic 0W-20 oil123. The oil capacity is approximately 4.4 quarts1. Honda recommends changing the engine oil and oil filter every 7,500 miles or every 12 months, whichever comes first1.
Same experience here. Switched from M1 FS 0w-40 (which I really like) 0w-20 R&P in 5.4 3v 2013 Navigator. I ran the 0w-40 because of how smooth and quiet it made the motor especially on startup but the R&P is noticeably smoother and quieter. Didn't expect that at all.
I doubt the stuck rings was because of the viscosity used. If they did 7500 OCIs or longer, it might be possible the engine was still kept clean but the oil fell flat in the ring pack environment. If it was a design flaw, you'd think talk about stuck rings on this engine would be all over the internet by now. I did however notice that there was some wear on the rod bearings, more than I would have expected at 94K miles. That could be due to using xW-20.
If anyone here saw the photos of the guts of that engine without knowing it burned oil they would most likely never think the rings were stuck and the last thing the engine needed was something to free the rings.
It's his response to commenters who say he should be saving hoses. He also makes sure to be extra careful with timing chain guides, head gaskets and water pumps before he hucks them across the shop.
I get a bit of a kick out of the baseline assumption that a Honda engine (of all engines) has a “ring design flaw.” Honda makes probably the best engines on earth. You may not like the cars, the transmissions might not last, but Honda engines are very, very good.
Occam’s razor strong suggests that when a particular fail mode is exceedingly rare (ANY 2.0T failure is rare, never mind one due to this particular issue of oil consumption), that it’s far more likely the engine was abused and/or neglected.
I think the puzzling thing to most of us is that the rest of the engine looks essentially surgically clean. How is it possible that the same oil that kept the rest of the engine so clean was allowing the oil rings to stick?
Personally, I suspect this is fuel dilution and long ODI related combined with a cheap 0w20 oil. The rest of the engine is basically immaculate. Someone using the oem spec viscosity in a cheap oil means it goes in a 0w20 and then starts shearing even thinner (cheap VII) and THEN has fuel dilution on top of it. No wonder the bearings showed levels of wear they shouldn’t.
The lighter than desired viscosity explains the bearing observations and heavy fuel dilution (5%-10%) explains the stuck oil ring. Likely driven very mildly, the engine probably spent a lot of time at light load with lots of short trips. Lower average oil temps kept the overhead clean, but the high fuel dilution in the ring pack (roughly double the nominal oil pan value) precipitated deposits at a temperature where it could normally run clean— if a better oil was used and it was hot long enough to cook off the fuel.
Occam’s razor strong suggests that when a particular fail mode is exceedingly rare (ANY 2.0T failure is rare, never mind one due to this particular issue of oil consumption), that it’s far more likely the engine was abused and/or neglected.
I think the puzzling thing to most of us is that the rest of the engine looks essentially surgically clean. How is it possible that the same oil that kept the rest of the engine so clean was allowing the oil rings to stick?
Personally, I suspect this is fuel dilution and long ODI related combined with a cheap 0w20 oil. The rest of the engine is basically immaculate. Someone using the oem spec viscosity in a cheap oil means it goes in a 0w20 and then starts shearing even thinner (cheap VII) and THEN has fuel dilution on top of it. No wonder the bearings showed levels of wear they shouldn’t.
The lighter than desired viscosity explains the bearing observations and heavy fuel dilution (5%-10%) explains the stuck oil ring. Likely driven very mildly, the engine probably spent a lot of time at light load with lots of short trips. Lower average oil temps kept the overhead clean, but the high fuel dilution in the ring pack (roughly double the nominal oil pan value) precipitated deposits at a temperature where it could normally run clean— if a better oil was used and it was hot long enough to cook off the fuel.
Happened to my 2015 CRV. The car had always had fuel dilution that Honda service could not improve. No carbon build up just varnish visible through fill hole. Coupled with mostly short trips in town in a cool climate, the oil rings got stuck. BGR flushes took care of it. Now going with shorter OCI and VRP to prevent it from happening again.
This happens more often than we all like.
Not picking on Honda at all. Every brand has gone through low tension oil ring growing pains. They’re inherently flawed from the get go.
I posted pics in another thread, but I think the clips from which they came belong here since many have been looking for evidence that the VRP works.
I've only tried the VRP in one engine-- 2005 Honda Odyssey, 212k miles. Always good oils, changed on OLM. But it ended up heavily varnished anyway. No real oil consumption still-- it's never needed a top off within an OCI-- but it's not clean inside.
I've only tried the VRP in one engine-- 2005 Honda Odyssey, 212k miles. Always good oils, changed on OLM. But it ended up heavily varnished anyway. No real oil consumption still-- it's never needed a top off within an OCI-- but it's not clean inside.
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Excellent! Thanks for the update. How many miles were driven in the 6 months?
coming up on 213k now, so about 8k miles.
That’s awesome, Hohn! What synthetic oil(s) did you use prior to VRP?
It looks like it is cleaning mostly by dislodging the deposits, rather than by dissolving it from the top of the layer. If it was mostly dissolving, there wouldn’t be clean spots and thick spots.
It looks like it is cleaning mostly by dislodging the deposits, rather than by dissolving it from the top of the layer. If it was mostly dissolving, there wouldn’t be clean spots and thick spots.
I’ve used many different oils over the last 18 years, but the majority was PP or PUP if I could find it. Also in the rotation was M1 EP, some Valvoline full synthetic, etc. Basically, at first I used whatever reputable, branded full synthetic of the latest API spec I could find on sale in 5w-20 grade until about 10 years ago I switch to just using PP or PUP in the yellow bottles. The GTL marketing hooked me, what can I say.
It does indeed appear to be dislodging vs dissolving, but I see no evidence of particles. Varnish is adhered to the substrate by a means that can only be broken chemically in the engine.
So while I agree that it appears to be dislodging, I think it’s still fundamentally a solvent action that is occurring.
The wildest thing about the VRP is how it has radically transformed the “feel” of the engine in terms of throttle response and seat of the pants power. It’s like the van is 12 years younger already.
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Thanks Hohn. Another member, @Sequoiasoon, posted a picture of cleaning that was occurring (not with VRP) on metal near the oil fill hole. It showed at least one big deposit chunk that moved, so it was dislodged. The reason I’m interested in the dislodging vs dissolving mechanism is that I’ve been doing various bench tests of VRP’s cleaning ability and I have not tested the dislodging ability. I cannot create a deposit like what is shown in your pictures, so I think I am going to give up hope of testing VRP’s cleaning ability in a bench test. I already know it cannot clean extremely hard varnish that forms on the sides of cups in some of my volatility tests. Only oven cleaner and Sweet’s 7.62 Bore Cleaner have been able to show any ability to dissolve that varnish, and it was very minimal, out of many nasty chemicals I’ve tried. I have to use fine grit sandpaper to remove it.
Hohn, you stated that you changed the oil based on the OLM, did you have a certain mileage that you changed your oil?
I am guessing during the 18 years that you owned this car that there were times where the OLM went off sooner or later than the previous oil change.
I’d only be guessing, but the OLM seems to want to go about 7000 on an interval in our typical use.
When changing by mileage, I actually convert fuel burn to a mileage. I change based on the advice of a former colleague who worked at SWRI and ran their lube analysis section. His rule of thumb: When you burn 200x the oil pan capacity, change the oil.
So with 5qts of oil, that means 1000qts of fuel burn, or 250 gallons. In miles for me, that’s right around 5000-7000 depending on city or hwy.
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I REALLY want to run this oil in my 6.4L Dodge Challenger, but the thickest viscosity Valvoline offers it in is 5W30 and the manual for my car "recommends" 0W40. I wonder how big of a deal it would be to run one or two cycles of 5W30 R&P through this engine?
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