Valvoline Extended Protection Full Synthetic vs. Mobil 1 Extended Performance
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What common base lubricant are they using with the different levels and types of moly to get these curves? And what kind of test apparatus to create the friction levels?
The "no moly" curve on the 3rd graph has constant increasing friction with temperature. Probably due to the oil thinning and the oil film thickness decreasing causing increased asperities contact between the moving surfaces. So in that case any initial "start-up" wear would be less initially with the higher viscosity and increase as things heat up and the oil thins. Also, in the 2nd graph, two of the moly curves show a slight friction increase or a constant friction level vs temperature.
The moly (depending on what type) in these tests seem to be a heat activated friction modifier, like zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) is also heat activated. IMO, any "start-up" wear is a stronger function of lack of lubricaton instead of the lubricant formulation. There may be some friction modifiers that work better at lower temps, and obviously any additive that helps reduce boundry and mixed lubrication friction will help reduce wear when the viscosity can't due to very low or zero film thickness.
With heat activated friction modifiers, they help offset the decreasing film thickness as the oil thins out from heat, thereby adding increased film strength as the film thickness decreases from heat. Film thickness and film strength are not the same thing. You need both to have an effective oil to provide maximum wear protection. As the film thickness decreases, then the film strength (the FM/AF additives) start kicking in as more surface asperities make contact between the rubbing surfaces.
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TGMO was the quietest.Curious based on your experience, what was the "quietest" oil in your Tundra ? It's not a trick question, my Tundra is due for an oil change and I have 5 different brands of oil in the garageI was going to pick the most expensive of the bunch but some may argue that's shallow. lol
engine is not fussy and all my oils meet the requirements and I do short oci so it matters none.
Anecdotally, when I worked at a Honda dealership last we we had one customer who was livid about this and I remember being in the room when he went on a tirade about it to one of our service advisors. The customer called Honda to complain and we at the dealership called Honda for advice, at the end of the day we were both told that it was normal and to contact Honda in the event of any catastrophic failure.
So I would agree that Honda does believe that this is perfectly normal and perhaps I would go as far as speculating that they do not believe it to be problematic. Many people are upset about this and I totally understand why but at the same time I'm not aware of any engine failures that have occurred as a result of this concern.
Isn't that where most oil is found during an oil change? 💀no worries, next oci, you may find it on the bottom of your oil pan.
Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who actually believes that it is "perfectly normal" for ANY internal combustion automobile engine to dilute it's lubricating oil with gasoline, to the point it raises the oil level to as high as 1 full quart over full, under normal operation is one of 2 things.
They are either 1). Lying, or else they are 2). Completely stupid. Neither one belongs in the public trust, selling new automobiles for tens of thousands of dollars to unsuspecting consumers.
And if they believe it not going to be "problematic" over the life of the vehicle, they are either a bigger liar, or are even more stupid.
I'm not disagreeing with you but rather trying to look at it from the perspective of Honda at the corporate level and what they might be thinking from the Bean counter perspective. I totally agree that this is at the very least concerning and will likely become problematic in the future in the sense that if we can verify that it is contributing to engine failures or other issues the Honda will need to be on the hook for what occurs.
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For the HFRR test they used a ball-style device, they unfortunately do not list what oil they use as the base with this test:
On the same test, they determined that lower Mo concentrations reduced the rate of activation, again showing it is a bit of a balancing act:
For the other tests, they used Sequence IVA:
They also did some testing on both DLC and Alusil as part of the same presentation (you'd probably enjoy the whole presentation):
Trimer performed better than dimer:
On a variation of the original sliding test, where they changed the disc out to Alusil, trimer bonded to the surface better than dimer:
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There are several additives that require heat to activate, yes, Moly is one of them, ZDDP is another. This is the why we run Sequence IVA. Of course this is also the period where the oil is cooler and thicker, so MOFT is higher.
Startup isn't just cold oil and less effective additives. Higher wear is more to do with warmup, where this is the case, but we have excessive enrichment, which causes fuel wash on the bores, increasing wear, and of course the rings and pistons aren't up to temp and aren't properly fitting in the bores either, which increases wear.
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They already had that TSB with the reprogram to try and reduce it, so clearly it's an identified problem (at least with Engineering), regardless of their posturing and attempts at hand-waving it away to the dealerships and general public.
It reminds me of an issue that I had with my 2010 Subaru Outback that was very well known and widely complained about. Subaru issued a TSB "fix" that never resolved any issue on my vehicle and countless others as well. But things like this I feel like the consumers need to make enough noise to force the company to take action even if it is something like a half measure from the company. It would likely take something far more widespread of catastrophic nature to occur before any meaningful response will take place. Hyundai and all their engines that have been blowing up in recent years, that is the kind of thing that will need to happen before Honda moves a finger I'd wager.
I'm wondering what Honda and other manufacturers who have vehicles that have major fuel dilution consider to be a safe limit of fuel dilution. In a case where someone comes in with the oil level 1/2 quart over full due to fuel dilution (like in the video posted earlier), does Honda just put that statement on the work order and sends them on their way ... or do they see a red flag and look into it case-by-case if the fuel dilution looks extreme. If the former, it seems like a brush-off type way to ignore the issue.
The article linked below says a safe limit of fuel dilution is 2.4% for a gasoline engine, which if the sump was 5 quarts would only be 0.12 quart, which is 3.8 oz. A 3.8 oz rise in oil level will barely be noticeable on most dipsticks. So when the dipstick shows 1/2 quart or more above the Full mark the percentage of fuel dilution has to be way higher than 2.4% ... more like around 10%+. For Honda or anyone else to simply say "It's normal and will 'burn-off' with driving and not cause any problems" seems like something they would say just to calm the owner to get the car through the factory warranty period.
There is no doubt that as the fuel dilution gets farther past a "safe level" then there will be more wear and most likely the engine will show signs of wear long before it would if there was no or minimal fuel dilution. There is no way that oil with 10%+ fuel dilution is protecting an engine just as well as oil with 1-2% fuel dilution. Of course, those that change their oil more often or do drive in such ways that minimize the fuel dilution will fair better down the road. The level of fuel dilution can be all over the map based on a lot of factors like individual driving habits and oil change intervals.
Fuel Dilution -- The Cause, Effect, and Detection
Fuel Dilution is the thinning of engine oil by gasoline or diesel fuel. During the service life of the engine oil, some amount of fuel dilution is inevitable, but several factors can cause excessive dilution:
www.savantlab.com
I'm wondering what Honda and other manufacturers who have vehicles that have major fuel dilution consider to be a safe limit of fuel dilution. In a case where someone comes in with the oil level 1/2 quart over full due to fuel dilution (like in the video posted earlier), does Honda just put that statement on the work order and sends them on their way ... or do they see a red flag and look into it case-by-case if the fuel dilution looks extreme. If the former, it seems like a brush-off type way to ignore the issue.
The article linked below says a safe limit of fuel dilution is 2.4% for a gasoline engine, which if the sump was 5 quarts would only be 0.12 quart, which is 3.8 oz. A 3.8 oz rise in oil level will barely be noticeable on most dipsticks. So when the dipstick shows 1/2 quart or more above the Full mark the percentage of fuel dilution has to be way higher than 2.4% ... more like around 10%+. For Honda or anyone else to simply say "It's normal and will 'burn-off' with driving and not cause any problems" seems like something they would say just to calm the owner to get the car through the factory warranty period.
There is no doubt that as the fuel dilution gets farther past a "safe level" then there will be more wear and most likely the engine will show signs of wear long before it would if there was no or minimal fuel dilution. There is no way that oil with 10%+ fuel dilution is protecting an engine just as well as oil with 1-2% fuel dilution. Of course, those that change their oil more often or do drive in such ways that minimize the fuel dilution will fair better down the road. The level of fuel dilution can be all over the map based on a lot of factors like individual driving habits and oil change intervals.
Fuel Dilution -- The Cause, Effect, and Detection
Fuel Dilution is the thinning of engine oil by gasoline or diesel fuel. During the service life of the engine oil, some amount of fuel dilution is inevitable, but several factors can cause excessive dilution:
My uneducated guess is that it is one half quart and why I say that is because I've noticed that several direct injection engines have an oil sump capacity that is usually about one half quart higher than their recommended oil fill capacity. I would presume to think that the extra space that they allow for in the sump is for excess fuel dilution.
ANY fuel dilution is EXCESSIVE fuel dilution. We need to stop making excuses for these manufacturers, and start holding them accountable for the shoddy merchandise they're producing. Crap is normal. Coming from my rear... Not from under my hood.
Fuel dilution goes way back. Carburetors were notorious for it but we didn’t have social media to complain on then.
You said this before, so I'll say this again. I've owned many carburetor equipped automobile engines in my lifetime. I never owned one that raised the oil level because of fuel dilution. Not one. Even in fridgid Winter climate. To have it occur on a modern computerized fuel injected engine is inexcusable.
Half a quart of fuel added to 5 quarts of oil isn't going to result in anything good in the long run. A dilution ratio that high is going to reduce the viscosity significantly and caused more wear, not only from the large reduction in the oil viscosity, but also from effects of fuel (a solvent) on the oil ad pack.
I could see 2 to 3% as "normal" and not have any real long term ramifications, but 10%+ fuel dilution in the sump most of the time certainly isn't going to be a good thing for engine wear in the long run.
