Tell you what - if somebody will talk Motoking into testing it and posting pictures/results I'll send him my next 20,000 mile ultra.
Using oil filter for multiple OCs
- Thread starter Ga129
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Positive displacement? Ever hear of pump slip, aka blow by. How about pump wear/strain caused by that downstream restriction?
How super duper the oil pump is sounds really good on paper. Lots of loss in the real world. Someone needs to spend some time with a real world oiling system.
PD pumps don't slip that much unless they are junk to start with or totally worn out, especially when only producing 80~100 PSI output due to downstream restriction. So I wouldn't say there is "lots of loss". PD pumps that are producing hundreds or thousands of PSI might have much more "slip".
PD pumps on autos are tight enough to produce hundreds of PSI output if the pressure relief valve doesn't operate. They will produce pressure high enough to rupture an oil filter, or blow-out some other area of the oiling system open if there is not pressure regulation.
You have date showing just how much pump slip there is compared to an "ideal" pump with no slip on a PD pump used in the automotive industry?
Here's some data I collected and graphed from my Z06, so I did "spend some time with a real world oiling system". You can see the oil pressure starts kneeing over slightly after 3K RPM, but not by much before hitting pressure relief at 70 PSI. Adding a few more PSI of resistance due to a filter loading up isn't going to matter to a PD like this, regardless of a little slip.
Positive displacement? Ever hear of pump slip, aka blow by. How about pump wear/strain caused by that downstream restriction?
How super duper the oil pump is sounds really good on paper. Lots of loss in the real world. Someone needs to spend some time with a real world oiling system.
PD pumps don't slip that much unless they are junk to start with or totally worn out, especially when only producing 80~100 PSI output due to downstream restriction. So I wouldn't say there is "lots of loss". PD pumps that are producing hundreds or thousands of PSI might have much more "slip".
PD pumps on autos are tight enough to produce hundreds of PSI output if the pressure relief valve doesn't operate. They will produce pressure high enough to rupture an oil filter, or blow-out some other area of the oiling system open if there is not pressure regulation.
You have date showing just how much pump slip there is compared to an "ideal" pump with no slip on a PD pump used in the automotive industry?
Here's some data I collected and graphed from my Z06, so I did "spend some time with a real world oiling system". You can see the oil pressure starts kneeing over slightly after 3K RPM, but not by much before hitting pressure relief at 70 PSI. Adding a few more PSI of resistance due to a filter loading up isn't going to matter to a PD like this, regardless of a little slip.
Originally Posted By: philipp10
No one here, and I mean NO ONE knows how likely the bypass is to open, whether the filter is clean or on it's second OCI.
Guess you missed reading about Gary Allan's test truck with an accurate delta-p measuring data logger. He concluded that it's pretty hard to get an oil filter to hit bypass pressure delta-p unless the filter had quite a few miles on it and he revved the engine pretty high on cold start when the oil was very cold.
No one here, and I mean NO ONE knows how likely the bypass is to open, whether the filter is clean or on it's second OCI.
Guess you missed reading about Gary Allan's test truck with an accurate delta-p measuring data logger. He concluded that it's pretty hard to get an oil filter to hit bypass pressure delta-p unless the filter had quite a few miles on it and he revved the engine pretty high on cold start when the oil was very cold.
Originally Posted By: aircooled
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Flow rate isn't a problem. At all. You guys do realize that the bypass valve opens hundreds of thousands of times during the course of an oil change, right? Oil is constantly bypassing the filter. It doesn't get filtered 100% of the time.
The next BITOG trend will be to run no oil filter! Think how cheap and easy........ and your dainty little hands won't get dirty!
Already Been done, see page 6
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Flow rate isn't a problem. At all. You guys do realize that the bypass valve opens hundreds of thousands of times during the course of an oil change, right? Oil is constantly bypassing the filter. It doesn't get filtered 100% of the time.
The next BITOG trend will be to run no oil filter! Think how cheap and easy........ and your dainty little hands won't get dirty!
Already Been done, see page 6
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2014
- Messages
- 4,118
Not everyone drives a z06. LS7? Great data for
OP has a Kia. That's the manufacturer that recommends the OE filter to eliminate startup idle knock. TSB'd for that death rattle.
Something like this:
I've replaced enough oil pumps and troubleshooted enough oiling issues to know how superb automaker PD pumps are, and how perfect every oiling system is, just like a Z06 Corvette.
OP has a Kia. That's the manufacturer that recommends the OE filter to eliminate startup idle knock. TSB'd for that death rattle.
Something like this:
I've replaced enough oil pumps and troubleshooted enough oiling issues to know how superb automaker PD pumps are, and how perfect every oiling system is, just like a Z06 Corvette.
^^^ The data I gathered from my LS6 is not useless, and pretty much shows that a typical good quality PD oil pump in an automotive application doesn't have much slip even at higher output pressure. And having a dry sump system has no bearing on how the oil pump performs anyway.
You might want to check on KIA oil pumps, not sure they are true PD type. Also, talk about the KIA/Hyundai "death rattle" (described by their TSB) was from using possible counterfeit or low tier filters that were pure junk and probably didn't flow much at all, making the bypass valve open which couldn't handle any flow, thereby cutting flow way down. Just as I described earlier. Lots of people have used known brand name aftermarket filters on KIA/Hyundai with no ill effects.
You might want to check on KIA oil pumps, not sure they are true PD type. Also, talk about the KIA/Hyundai "death rattle" (described by their TSB) was from using possible counterfeit or low tier filters that were pure junk and probably didn't flow much at all, making the bypass valve open which couldn't handle any flow, thereby cutting flow way down. Just as I described earlier. Lots of people have used known brand name aftermarket filters on KIA/Hyundai with no ill effects.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ The data I gathered from my LS6 is not useless, and pretty much shows that a typical good quality PD oil pump in an automotive application doesn't have much slip even at higher output pressure. And having a dry sump system has no bearing on how the oil pump performs anyway.
You might want to check on KIA oil pumps, not sure they are true PD type. Also, talk about the KIA/Hyundai "death rattle" (described by their TSB) was from using possible counterfeit or low tier filters that were pure junk and probably didn't flow much at all, making the bypass valve open which couldn't handle any flow, thereby cutting flow way down. Just as I described earlier. Lots of people have used known brand name aftermarket filters on KIA/Hyundai with no ill effects.
As a Falsely Accused Framboy, FAF, I will venture out in cyberspace again and say these mystery startup or idle rattles may be due to worn or out of tolerance oil pumps? A great flowing synthetic filter like the Ultra will equal an oil pump's flow, but a more restrictive oil filter can make a worn oil pump look good, boosting the pump's pressure a bit? Oil galleries are small, pressure is the main key to oil getting to where it wants to go? Just Framboying around with the thoughts. I think you are onto something with the counterfeit filters. Baldwin has a page on them, pretty bad what some people will do for money. I post for free Fram Ultras, that's not money.
^^^ The data I gathered from my LS6 is not useless, and pretty much shows that a typical good quality PD oil pump in an automotive application doesn't have much slip even at higher output pressure. And having a dry sump system has no bearing on how the oil pump performs anyway.
You might want to check on KIA oil pumps, not sure they are true PD type. Also, talk about the KIA/Hyundai "death rattle" (described by their TSB) was from using possible counterfeit or low tier filters that were pure junk and probably didn't flow much at all, making the bypass valve open which couldn't handle any flow, thereby cutting flow way down. Just as I described earlier. Lots of people have used known brand name aftermarket filters on KIA/Hyundai with no ill effects.
As a Falsely Accused Framboy, FAF, I will venture out in cyberspace again and say these mystery startup or idle rattles may be due to worn or out of tolerance oil pumps? A great flowing synthetic filter like the Ultra will equal an oil pump's flow, but a more restrictive oil filter can make a worn oil pump look good, boosting the pump's pressure a bit? Oil galleries are small, pressure is the main key to oil getting to where it wants to go? Just Framboying around with the thoughts. I think you are onto something with the counterfeit filters. Baldwin has a page on them, pretty bad what some people will do for money. I post for free Fram Ultras, that's not money.
As far as the above stuff goes:
I've never had this problem (rattle), thank god. I've always used name-brand filters. I think the cheapest i've used on this particular car was just a plain Bosch filter, but I normally run anything between those and the fram ultras. Death Rattle sounds like a scary thing!
I've never had this problem (rattle), thank god. I've always used name-brand filters. I think the cheapest i've used on this particular car was just a plain Bosch filter, but I normally run anything between those and the fram ultras. Death Rattle sounds like a scary thing!
Last edited:
I now have 4 vehicles that have done 19-20k mile OCI's on FU. Still waiting for a bad UOA or engine destruction.
They must have LS7 oil pumps.
They must have LS7 oil pumps.
- Status
Similar threads
