Using oil filter for multiple OCs

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Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Although I'm staying neutral here in whether or not running a filter multiple OCI's is good or not... I do have to respond to this:
Originally Posted By: philipp10
The second OCI the filter is filtering at a higher efficiency.
Higher efficiency, but lower flow rate.
I too have no horse in the race, but I would question how much lower. I am betting it is a non-issue on a clean normally operating engine.
 
Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Although I'm staying neutral here in whether or not running a filter multiple OCI's is good or not... I do have to respond to this:

Originally Posted By: philipp10
The second OCI the filter is filtering at a higher efficiency.

Higher efficiency, but lower flow rate.

~ Triton


I agree. I think sometimes we place to much value on efficiency and not enough on flow. Two sides to the coin.


There is no such thing as "lower flow rate" in an engine with a positive displacement oil pump unless you're at high RPM with cold oil and the oil pump is in pressure relief.

As 2015_PSD said above ... non-issue, unless the filter is totally clogged up which would only happen on a "sludger" engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Of all the manufacturers that advise running the filter for more than one OCI, I'm not aware of any that advise removing it to drain. With a properly functioning ADBV it should be difficult to drain anyway right?

IMO if you're going to take it off, replace it, if you're going to run it for more than one OCI leave it in place. The potential for creating an issue far outweigh the potential benefit for removing it.


Why would th Mfgr's recommend draining an old filter?


Well in my opinion they wouldn't because it isn't a good idea. But if they felt it was beneficial they might very well recommend it much as they do with other items.

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
The benifits are small, and each vehicle is different so some make a big mess and some dont...this is Bitog and many will do things that add minimal value so they "feel good".


So, if everyone is jumping off a bridge it must be OK?

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Do you think your dealer or quick lube will pre fill an oil filter? Not in your life!


Well I once worked at a dealer and did, and the guy who does them for me If I'm away does (I've watched him do it on other cars). But I suspect we are the exception to the norm.

Still, millions of people run through the quick lubes and everything is OK.

I'll say it again, as long as oil is being changed at something approaching a reasonable interval with quality products none of the rest of this stuff matters...

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Although I'm staying neutral here in whether or not running a filter multiple OCI's is good or not... I do have to respond to this:

Originally Posted By: philipp10
The second OCI the filter is filtering at a higher efficiency.

Higher efficiency, but lower flow rate.

~ Triton


I agree. I think sometimes we place to much value on efficiency and not enough on flow. Two sides to the coin.


There is no such thing as "lower flow rate" in an engine with a positive displacement oil pump unless you're at high RPM with cold oil and the oil pump is in pressure relief.

As 2015_PSD said above ... non-issue, unless the filter is totally clogged up which would only happen on a "sludger" engine.


Even if it were true - it is not a switch - it did not suddenly change flow or efficiency (unless it is a white can of death) the filter is flowing and filtering at essentially the same rate as before the new oil.
 
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Such deep discussion and controversy over such a minutia issue...

Boggles the mind...
crazy2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Although I'm staying neutral here in whether or not running a filter multiple OCI's is good or not... I do have to respond to this:

Originally Posted By: philipp10
The second OCI the filter is filtering at a higher efficiency.

Higher efficiency, but lower flow rate.

~ Triton


only true if it goes into bypass mode. The pump is a positive displacement pump, constant output.
I don't mean to be so argumentative but I do think this site relies on to much emotion and marketing and not enough real test data. Doing something because it helps you "sleep at night" or is "cheap insurance" is not the way to solve engineering problems. Controlled tests are the only way to know what works and what doesn't. It's too bad we cannot get access to some the the tests the manufacturer's have ran to put these issues to bed.
 
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Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Such deep discussion and controversy over such a minutia issue...

Boggles the mind... :cray:


Repeat after me: "None of this stuff really matters..."

wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
I do think this site relies on to much emotion and marketing and not enough real test data.


This like other forums... I'd bet would be pretty parse. Topics labeled "can of death", "tear 'o", "did the filter kill my engine", etc... People cut open cans and argue about how straight the pleats are... or how it "looks". Where's the data? What was life like before BITOG... were engines spontaneously exploding?

No, people went on with their "normal" lives... changing oil/filter every 3k or whatever and probably selling the vehicle before the useful life of the engine was reached.
 
Flow rate isn't a problem. At all. You guys do realize that the bypass valve opens hundreds of thousands of times during the course of an oil change, right? Oil is constantly bypassing the filter. It doesn't get filtered 100% of the time.
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Flow rate isn't a problem. At all. You guys do realize that the bypass valve opens hundreds of thousands of times during the course of an oil change, right? Oil is constantly bypassing the filter. It doesn't get filtered 100% of the time.


shocked2.gif
then Mom lied to me!
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Flow rate isn't a problem. At all. You guys do realize that the bypass valve opens hundreds of thousands of times during the course of an oil change, right? Oil is constantly bypassing the filter. It doesn't get filtered 100% of the time.


I don't believe that for a second. Only if your in Minnesota and it's -10 below, then sure, maybe so. Why would you think it's opening hundreds of times over an OCI?
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Flow rate isn't a problem. At all. You guys do realize that the bypass valve opens hundreds of thousands of times during the course of an oil change, right? Oil is constantly bypassing the filter. It doesn't get filtered 100% of the time.


The next BITOG trend will be to run no oil filter! Think how cheap and easy........ and your dainty little hands won't get dirty!
grin.gif
 
Bypass is one of the reasons I have for putting a new filter on each oil change interval. Viscosity of oil, temperature, volume of flow, and restriction are some that make the bypass open more or less. It's only guessing one way or the other to say it is bypassing a lot, or not, since can't watch what it's doing in there.
 
Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Although I'm staying neutral here in whether or not running a filter multiple OCI's is good or not... I do have to respond to this:

Originally Posted By: philipp10
The second OCI the filter is filtering at a higher efficiency.

Higher efficiency, but lower flow rate.

~ Triton


I agree. I think sometimes we place to much value on efficiency and not enough on flow. Two sides to the coin.


A Fram Ultra used for two mild OCI's in a clean well maintained engine should pose no problems. Especially since they are rated for 15K.
 
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Although I'm staying neutral here in whether or not running a filter multiple OCI's is good or not... I do have to respond to this:

Originally Posted By: philipp10
The second OCI the filter is filtering at a higher efficiency.

Higher efficiency, but lower flow rate.

~ Triton


I agree. I think sometimes we place to much value on efficiency and not enough on flow. Two sides to the coin.


A Fram Ultra used for two mild OCI's in a clean well maintained engine should pose no problems. Especially since they are rated for 15K.

It would be a problem for me.
 
Wow, really?

How the heck can anyone say the flow rate won't be lower? I'm not talking about the oil pump, btw, I'm talking about the oil flowing through the filter media.

Why do you think it gets more efficient at filtering after an OCI? Because it's trapped more dirt and contaminants in the media. That trapped crud makes the filter's flow rate lower because the media has trapped those dirt contaminants, making less available area for the oil to flow through the media.

The filter gains efficiency after an OCI, and inversely loses some of its flow rate.

---

I'm not trying to make it sound like it's that big of a deal; it probably isn't of much concern in a relatively clean engine. But I'm just baffled that people don't understand the inverse relationship that occurs between efficiency and flow rate with continued usage of an oil filter.

~ Triton
 
If the media turns out to be restricting any of the flow, the oil filter's bypass will take care of that. If a filter were restrictive, I wouldn't worry so much about flow as I would about filtration being adversely affected if it was always bypassing a bunch of oil.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Triton_330

How the heck can anyone say the flow rate won't be lower? I'm not talking about the oil pump, btw, I'm talking about the oil flowing through the filter media.


You need to understand how a positive displacement oil pump works in the system to see what's going on with oil flow and how an increase in resistance of the oil filter needs to be super extreme to make any difference.

The oiling system in most cars is positive displacement, not pressure source driven like a garden hose. That is the key to understanding that filters really don't impede the oil flow to the engine.

If the filter gets a little more restrictive because of crud in the media, the oil pump just has to work a hair harder (the pump's output pressure will increase slightly) to force the same positive displacement of oil through the filter.

The oil pump will just keep working harder and harder to keep putting out the same oil volume as the flow resistance increases. What will happen first when the delta-p across the filter gets high enough, is the oil filter will go into bypass in order to keep flowing the same volume of oil from the pump. The oil filter should go into bypass before the oil pump goes in to pressure relief mode, especially if the oil is hot and thin.

The only time the flow rate through the filter & engine oiling system would be cut back in flow volume (relatively) is when the resistance becomes so high that the oil pump will go into pressure relief. At that point the oil flow will be dependent on the max output pressure of the pump as controlled by its pressure relief valve. Otherwise, anytime the pump's output pressure is below the pressure relief setting, all the volume coming out of the pump will go through the filter & engine (ie, no oil pump flow is being shunted back to the sump). BTW, an engine's oiling circuit is typically about 15 times more restrictive than the oil filter, so if a filter's resistance increases 3 to 5 PSI, it's pretty insignificant in the total system resistance.

I can think of only one scenario where the filter could impede flow, and that is if the filter totally clogged up and its bypass valve was way under sized to handle the oil flow from the pump, and that in turn would cause the oil pump to hit pressure relief at a much reduced output volume.
 
Originally Posted By: aircooled
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Flow rate isn't a problem. At all. You guys do realize that the bypass valve opens hundreds of thousands of times during the course of an oil change, right? Oil is constantly bypassing the filter. It doesn't get filtered 100% of the time.


The next BITOG trend will be to run no oil filter! Think how cheap and easy........ and your dainty little hands won't get dirty!
grin.gif


I agree, but have a better idea! Some of you know that a few BITOG members have donated oil and filters to me to help out the less fortunate in my apt. complex, correct? For the BITOG members that want to use an oil filter for multiple OCI's we can form a list of said members and mail our used oil filters to them to use again! I am a genius!
banana2.gif
 
Positive displacement? Ever hear of pump slip, aka blow by.
How about pump wear/strain caused by that downstream restriction?

How super duper the oil pump is sounds really good on paper. Lots of loss in the real world. Someone needs to spend some time with a real world oiling system.
 
No one here, and I mean NO ONE knows how likely the bypass is to open, whether the filter is clean or on it's second OCI. I would suspect, in a resonably clean engine that the back pressure on the oil filter would not change in a measurable way between being brand new and on its seocnd OCI. The reason I say that is, if you look at the filters that are cut open, especially the Fram Ultras, they don't look very contaminated. Now having said that, without some type of test aparatus, we will never know. (and that's one of the reasons I find these filter cut open tests kind of useless). Until there is some data on filter loading and back pressure, this discussion is all just speculation. Anyone have access to a way to measure filter back pressure?
 
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