used AUTO-RX now have lifter clatterve

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I think i get it! Moving parts that have not seen oil in a long time are quiet,now they get oil for the first time they are getting noisy.
Holy smokes and here i was thinking that moving parts run dry would just wear themselves out or seize in short order. Anybody got a large suspension bridge they want to sell me?





Wow. It makes no sense at all, unless I'm missing something. Any metal part that requires oil that is running dry will make noise and wear out. If anything oil hitting it is going to silence it and help matters. Unless the part is ruined due to lack of lubrication then all bets are off.

Trav- Have I got a deal for you! I have Bridge located in Brooklyn, it needs a little paint but its good otherwise! I'll let it go cheap, but you have to act fast.

 

[Trav]

A quote from ARX,draw your own conclusions.

Quote:
Engine sludge and contamination build-up are working together this very second with the sole objective of killing your engine. As you start to get oil on metal that has been starved for lubrication, you will hear noises


Another all time favorite.

Quote:
Varnish is nothing more than a cosmetic stain; it does not affect the performance of the engine


PS How much for the bridge is this a tonight and tonight only price?

 

[badtlc]

I have no problem with either of those statements. The first one uses some wording that is more a play on fear than sticking to logic/reasoning. The 2nd one is completely true.

 

[demarpaint]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but metal starved for lubrication is going to make noise. Properly lubricated metal shouldn't make noise. What am I missing?

 

[Trav]

Quote:
The 2nd one is completely true


No where near true,varnish can stick oil pressure actuated parts and prevent them from functioning properly.
hydraulic operated lifters/lash adjusters,VVT systems,cam chain adjusters,oil pump relief valves ect. Hardly a cosmetic stain.

 

[OneEyeJack]

We still do not know where the noise is coming from. It has not been positively identified with a hands on look at the engine itself. Lets have a show of hands from any mechanic that went into an engine knowing exactly what the problem was, only to be proven wrong once you got their hand on the engine. Be honest!

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
We still do not know where the noise is coming from. It has not been positively identified with a hands on look at the engine itself.


Exactly. The cause of what's suspected to be a lifter is not necessarily a "swept" mechanical part. It could be trouble pumping up, or a partially blocked oil passage which sees no mechanical action.

Yes, parts with mechanical rubbing will be "clean". Yes, lifters are "mechanical" but there is noise potential in HLAs in areas which are not in constant mechanical contact. It could be the simple change in viscosity, sure, but IMO that puts it right on the borderline of being "broken" without even bringing ARX into the discussion. If the owner moved 500 miles north and made no other change it would be clattering often.

 

[demarpaint]

In this example what you guys are saying might or might not be true, but we could be going out on a limb here. OTOH it does seem A-Rx causes engine noises, which is the topic of several threads on this site.

I think what many of us are having problems understanding is this: "As you start to get oil on metal that has been starved for lubrication, you will hear noises." I just don't buy it, sorry. Several other members seem to feel the same way. Oil lubricates, protects, and cushions moving parts, it is not the other way around, or there would be no need for oil in an engine. If oil finally got to a part that was starved of it, the effect would be just the opposite, the part would quiet down. What I think is happening is passage ways are being blocked, and parts like lifters are being starved of oil, as un-dissolved bits and pieces of sludge break off and hopefully find their way to the filter and are taken out of circulation. Chemicals that do a better job of liquefying sludge are less likely to cause engine noise since the sludge is less likely to block passage ways. JMO

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
The 2nd one is completely true


No where near true,varnish can stick oil pressure actuated parts and prevent them from functioning properly.
hydraulic operated lifters/lash adjusters,VVT systems,cam chain adjusters,oil pump relief valves ect. Hardly a cosmetic stain.


if it is affecting anything it isn't varnish. varnish is just discoloration not a thickness of buildup.

 

[Trav]

Noise issues with ARX have been posted here for years always with the same response "the parts are getting cleaned".
More likely oil passages to the part making noise are being plugged up IMO.
I know this to be the case for a fact on my brothers Honda 3.5 V6,because when the passage plugged the valve controlling cylinder activation for ECO mode stuck and the engine would only run on 3 cylinders after ARX clean and rinse phases.

We used another product to liquefy the deposits and it started working again in about 30 min.
It seems to me ARX is using the effects of clean oil in the so called "rinse phase" to wash these away,but one has to question how much damage or wear is being done to the parts starving for oil prior to "rinsing" it away?
To me its just common sense that liquefying the sludge and varnish is preferable to having particulate matter roaming around or chunks being broke loose.

It seems that when an engine had a lifter noise and MMO,Kreen,Pro-Tec etc was used the noise either disappeared or it didn't due to mechanical failure but i never heard a quiet one start making noise after using any of these.

I don't understand the answer that the part must have been close to failing anyway and ARX just unmasked it.
That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
In this example what you guys are saying might or might not be true, but we could be going out on a limb here. OTOH it does seem A-Rx causes engine noises, which is the topic of several threads on this site.

I think what many of us are having problems understanding is this: "As you start to get oil on metal that has been starved for lubrication, you will hear noises." I just don't buy it, sorry. Several other members seem to feel the same way. Oil lubricates, protects, and cushions moving parts, it is not the other way around, or there would be no need for oil in an engine. If oil finally got to a part that was starved of it, the effect would be just the opposite, the part would quiet down. What I think is happening is passage ways are being blocked, and parts like lifters are being starved of oil, as un-dissolved bits and pieces of sludge break off and hopefully find their way to the filter and are taken out of circulation. Chemicals that do a better job of liquefying sludge are less likely to cause engine noise since the sludge is less likely to block passage ways. JMO


That's about the way I see it, We are told that Arx works at the Sludge/metal interface, and not at the sludge surface (as a solvent). It seems quite possible that a Lifter/Lifters are getting blocked by some dislocated sludge. Because it's a hydraulic lifter that's effected, you hear a noise, If it happened to be a bearing, you might not

 

[demarpaint]

Gald you guys agree, it makes a lot of sense to me, at least from my own POV. If someone can explain from a mechanical point why areas that weren't getting oil become noisy because they are getting oil I'm all ears. I think them getting plugged up is more likely the cause of the noise. If/when they become unplugged assuming there is no damage, and the part is not bad or defective the noise will stop. I would want to break down sludge as small as possible [liquid], vs chunks.

Any experiences I had with noisy lifters they quieted down in short order after adding MMO. The noise didn't get worse, then better, it just gradually improved and went away. Now if the lifter is bad or the cam is bad all bets are off.

 

[Trav]

What? Varnish has glue like properties it has a way sticking everything together when it is between close tolerance moving parts,it doesn't need any build up.

When it is formed on static parts then sure its probably just a cosmetic issue,although some claim (i personally have no idea) it is a better foundation for other contaminants like sludge to form on as opposed to clean metal surfaces.

 

[Trav]

Just to put this varnish is a cosmetic stain thing to bed once and for all,this is a quote from Lubrizol.

Quote:
VARNISH - A thin, insoluble, non-wipeable film occurring on interior engine parts. Can cause sticking and malfunction of close-clearance moving parts. Called lacquer in diesel engines.



http://www.gf-5.com/resources/glossary/

 

[cronk]

Lifter noise often occurs in dirty engines. There is a small oil orifice and a tiny steel check ball inside the lifter. All it takes is one tiny piece of sludge or grit to stick in the lifter and cause noise. I Auto-RX'ed my severely sludged chevy 305 over the summer, I had a little lifter tick before I started, it did seem to worsen at times during the clean phase. I am half way through the rinse phase and the lifter has been silent since the beginning of the rinse phase. More than likely small pieces of sludge loosened during the treatment got stuck in a lifter check ball and were cleaned as the phase continued. ARX cleans so gradually, it is unlikely to have clogged any oil passages in my experience. ARX cleans slow and steady, which is what you want.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: joseph0002
I have a 97 ford aspire that i recently used auto rx in per the instructions. I now have a loud tapping noise that increases with engine rpm, that i believe to be a lifter. I switched from mobil 1 to valvoline conventional per the instructions. This sound has NEVER been there prior to using auto rx. Once the car warms up the sound magically goes away until you do another cold start. Anyone else has this issue? I emailed auto rx and they attributed it to "dirt being cleaned". well why would it be temperature dependent and i've driven it around 500 miles like this, i would have thought the dirt would have been displaced by now. I guess my concern is that the auto rx has changed the low temp viscosity and is now causing excess wear until the oil is warm. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Why would you try and "clean" an engine that was run on Mobil 1? There should be no reason to.

 

[OneEyeJack]

After reading many of these posts I'm wondering why no mechanical evidence is presented. Everyone is listening to noise from somewhere and making assumptions without the complete picture. This morning I tore into an engine that has suffered every miracle in a bottle there is to fix a lifter noise and clean up an engine by both independent shops and dealers alike. Everyone knew it was caused by the solvents and agents breaking loose chunks of stuff and pumping them around the oil system. The engine is a Honda Civic and the noise was from a damaged valve adjustment screw and lock nut assembly. I replaced it with a used piece from another engine and the problem was solved. The owner was told to sue every manufacturer of every product he used. They knew all the answers. You can't solve every engine problem with something in a bottle and something in a bottle can't cause every problem that comes up. Sometimes you just have to get out the wrenches and get your hands on the parts. Since I've been following this thread I chased down 4 cars that had "lifter noise" from a friend's shop. We took a very close look at these 4 cars, 2 Honda's 1 Toyota and 1 BMW 3 Series. They all ticked but only 1 had a lifter problem. The other three were other sources of noise. All were told by dealers at one point to use a miracle cure in a bottle or that the engine needed to be overhauled. The overwhelming focus in todays auto repair business is to check the computer numbers, replace parts or you need a new car. The art of trouble shooting is not practiced much, anymore. If you find a shop with an honest mechanic that will take the time to diagnose a problem before presenting you with an estimate then go there for all your service work and bring cookies when you come to pick up your vehicle.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
This morning I tore into an engine that has suffered every miracle in a bottle there is to fix a lifter noise and clean up an engine by both independent shops and dealers alike. Everyone knew it was caused by the solvents and agents breaking loose chunks of stuff and pumping them around the oil system. The engine is a Honda Civic and the noise was from a damaged valve adjustment screw and lock nut assembly


How anything in a bottle cure mechanical lifter/lash adjuster noise is beyond me.
I think everyone in this thread is on the same sheet of music on this one,this is about hydraulic units only.

When a hydraulic lifter/lash adjuster is ticking its very possible that it is varnish or dirt related.
IMO it is fair advice to try mechanic in a can for a short time like a single OCI before tearing into the engine in these cases given the high cost of labor to even get at these parts on some engines.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
This morning I tore into an engine that has suffered every miracle in a bottle there is to fix a lifter noise and clean up an engine by both independent shops and dealers alike. Everyone knew it was caused by the solvents and agents breaking loose chunks of stuff and pumping them around the oil system. The engine is a Honda Civic and the noise was from a damaged valve adjustment screw and lock nut assembly


How anything in a bottle cure mechanical lifter/lash adjuster noise is beyond me.
I think everyone in this thread is on the same sheet of music on this one,this is about hydraulic units only.

When a hydraulic lifter/lash adjuster is ticking its very possible that it is varnish or dirt related.
IMO it is fair advice to try mechanic in a can for a short time like a single OCI before tearing into the engine in these cases given the high cost of labor to even get at these parts on some engines.


I agree, at $100 or higher an hour, at least around here anything is worth a shot before tearing into an engine. Worn damaged parts need to be replaced, I think we all agree with that. Suggesting a cleaning product first is a good idea IMO.

I'm still waiting on an explaination of how a part that was not getting oil due to dirt/sludge suddenly makes noise when it is cleaned up and getting proper lubrication. Once I totally understand that I can then say I learned something new.

 

[calvin1]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I agree, at $100 or higher an hour, at least around here anything is worth a shot before tearing into an engine. Worn damaged parts need to be replaced, I think we all agree with that. Suggesting a cleaning product first is a good idea IMO.

I'm still waiting on an explaination of how a part that was not getting oil due to dirt/sludge suddenly makes noise when it is cleaned up and getting proper lubrication. Once I totally understand that I can then say I learned something new.
I think it's worth considering that the part won't come clean all at once. There's going to be a texture to a half clean part that neither a varnished one nor a completely clean one is going to have. Think of cleaning out a greasy skillet. Some of it comes clean with just a hard stare but then there are also places that need several minutes worth of exercise. In the mean time the pan has low areas that are clean and raised areas that aren't. Having the same thing - clean and not clean spots right next to each other - in an engine is going to probably run less well than either before or after but once the part is completely clean it will not have the texture and should quiet down again.