used AUTO-RX now have lifter clatterve

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I see your point, but something is going on. badtlc suggested that A-Rx doesn't mix with the oil, if that is the case then the product could be reacting the same in the engine when cold as it does in the the bottle. I never mixed oil and water together and put them in the freezer, but I have a feeling they would separate and the water would react just like water would in a freezer. Can any comment on that?


It does mix. I have no idea what makes him think it doesn't.

 

[Trav]

That sounds fair.
I would add,maybe let it sit 12 hrs after mixing in the cold temp to see if there is any separation.


Originally Posted By: badtlc
ARX gets pushed around by the oil until it finds dirt/carbon/etc, emulsifies it, then carries the dirt until it gets caught in the filter.

Now if ARX occupies a space in the cold, thickens, it could make it seem like the oil's viscosity itself is altered but it is just the ARX.


If this is correct then that would explain what is going on.

 

[c3po]

to Quest:

I planned on putting 12 ounces of auto-rx into a clear 20 ounce Coke Bottle and leaving it in the freezer for about 12 hours.

I think 24 hours is a bit overkill.

Also, the problem with auto-rx, is that it was originally developed to CLEAN Printing Presses. How warm is it in a building that houses a Printing Press, probably about 70 Degrees.

If Quest can take some pics, I would not mind sending him a bottle of auto-rx. PM me if you are interested.

 

[demarpaint]

Why would 24 hours be overkill? Plenty of places in the US that get subzero cold for a lot longer than 24 hours, and a lot colder than a freezer. Why not leave it in for 12 hours, take a look, then again after 24 hours?

 

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why would 24 hours be overkill? Plenty of places in the US that get subzero cold for a lot longer than 24 hours, and a lot colder than a freezer. Why not leave it in for 12 hours, take a look, then again after 24 hours?


Think of auto-rx as ICE CREAM in the freezer, whether its 12 hours or 24 hours the stuff will be the same consistency, but since everyone wants 24 hours, then that is what I will do.

 

[Trajan]

I doubt that arx would thicken a gallon of oil enough to matter. Back in the day, I used 20w-50 year round. Car started just fine.

24 hours isn't overkill.

I've used it in a 94 Camaro, and a 97 Camaro. They ran year round. Sat outside year round. Had arx used in the winter with no problem.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I see your point, but something is going on. badtlc suggested that A-Rx doesn't mix with the oil, if that is the case then the product could be reacting the same in the engine when cold as it does in the the bottle. I never mixed oil and water together and put them in the freezer, but I have a feeling they would separate and the water would react just like water would in a freezer. Can any comment on that?


I think it is very similar. I am guessing most of the issue is caused because the ARX fills up the filter. WHen it is cold, it makes the filter have very high pressure buildup due to ARX covering the filter media causing poor oil flow for a little bit. I think this is why changing the filter is often recommended when startup noises show up.

 

[badtlc]

don't waste your time on freezer tests for ARX. Even at 30-40 degrees ARX is VERY thick and difficult to poor out of the bottle.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: c3po
to Quest:

I planned on putting 12 ounces of auto-rx into a clear 20 ounce Coke Bottle and leaving it in the freezer for about 12 hours.


Why bother? No one is disputing that straight ARX gets really thick. If you want to actually prove something, mix ARX thoroughly with some clean, non-ester oil at the proper ratio, agitate at 100C and then compare with untreated oil in the freezer.

It wouldn't shock me at all to see some thickening compared to virgin oil, but I bet it won't exceed the variance between different brands of oil within the same SAE grade. I also bet you won't see solid deposits of ARX precipitating out of solution anywhere in the bottle.

Offering to throw straight ARX in the freezer as proof of a lifter tick is barely masking an anti-ARX campaign with "science". Maybe I should measure the viscosity of straight MMO and try to explain other people's problems in that way. While we're at it, test some Kreen straight out of the bottle. Maybe we should also see if straight TCW3 burns as well as gasoline? Or see if straight Seafoam or SI-1 damages fuel system components?

We could perform tests on everyone's favourite additives straight out of their bottles and it would prove.....? All of these observations are pointless without being mixed according to standard dose rates. They are ADDITIVES, not substitutes.

Put ARX in oil according to directions or don't waste your time, IMO.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: badtlc

I think it is very similar. I am guessing most of the issue is caused because the ARX fills up the filter. WHen it is cold, it makes the filter have very high pressure buildup due to ARX covering the filter media causing poor oil flow for a little bit. I think this is why changing the filter is often recommended when startup noises show up.


All the vehicles I've treated with ARX use cartridge filters. I've pulled the filters mid treatment and I've never seen a filter "filled up with ARX". Furthermore, in freezing temps the filter is very restrictive to cold oil - the bypass circuit will be used heavily in these conditions regardless of ARX. Restrictive filtration is exactly why the bypass circuit (which also regulates maximum oil pressure) exists in the first place.

 

[greenjp]

A few items:

When I supposed that AutoRX is a "straight" 50 weight for the purposes of my thought experiment, that just means it would be a 50W-50. So my simple math (just a weighted average) is correct unless there's some non-linear behavior when mixing multiple viscosity fluids that I'm not educated on.

Putting AutoRX, or any other substance for that matter, in the freezer will alone tell us next to nothing. No information about the viscosity will come out. We may be able to estimate the pour point but that's it. Since even 10W motor oil has a pour point in the -35 range I don't think it will be very informative.

The suggested experiment to try AutoRX, plain oil, and plain oil w/AutoRX would at least give some comparative results.

jeff

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada


All the vehicles I've treated with ARX use cartridge filters. I've pulled the filters mid treatment and I've never seen a filter "filled up with ARX". Furthermore, in freezing temps the filter is very restrictive to cold oil - the bypass circuit will be used heavily in these conditions regardless of ARX. Restrictive filtration is exactly why the bypass circuit (which also regulates maximum oil pressure) exists in the first place.



You should browse this forum a bit, then. There are numerous filter photos on this site filled up with ARX covered gunk.

 

[ChuckBerry]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada


All the vehicles I've treated with ARX use cartridge filters. I've pulled the filters mid treatment and I've never seen a filter "filled up with ARX". Furthermore, in freezing temps the filter is very restrictive to cold oil - the bypass circuit will be used heavily in these conditions regardless of ARX. Restrictive filtration is exactly why the bypass circuit (which also regulates maximum oil pressure) exists in the first place.



You should browse this forum a bit, then. There are numerous filter photos on this site filled up with ARX covered gunk.


I believe what Craig in Canada means is ARX and ARX alone, not sludge that has been liquified by ARX and trapped in the filter media. If someone uses ARX and they don't suspect that their filter media will get loaded with sludge...then clearly they don't even know what ARX is for.

 

[OneEyeJack]

Did we forget about the original lifter noise. The experiment I'd like to see is to take the valve cover off and locate the offending lifter. Then press on it while the engine is running with your thumb and see if the noise goes away. Then see if the noise can be mechanically repaired or adjusted out. At least we'd know it was a lifter or a rocker or something mechanical. If you think that Auto-Rx broke a mechanical part you might be wrong. If Auto-Rx caused the noise you should change your wording to Auto-Rx enabled the noise that was waiting to happen. The focus should be on identifying the noise and not shooting the messenger. Until some mechanical troubleshooting is done this thread is not really useful for much. I thought BITOG was into a bit more than what's in a quart of oil or an additive that you pour into the oil.

 

[Trajan]

Much more fun to blame arx it seems.

 

[joseph0002]

blame may be a strong word...but to me its a pretty simple deduction...you drive a car for 77k and have no lifter noise...you place a product in said car per the directions and suddenly you have the noise. I may try to change the filter as thats a very simple thing to do. i'll try and post up a video in the am. it very well may not be a lifter noise and it may help someone with a little more mechanical knowledge than me to actually figure out what it may be.

 

[Trajan]

Sometimes a simple explaination is best. Sometimes not. You drive a car for 77K with no lifter noise. Then you go 77010 and get then you hear noise.

You drive a car for 77K, and for the last 1K the noise was there but masked. Then you add something, and the mask is now gone. Now you are aware of said noise and can fix it.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: ChuckBerry


I believe what Craig in Canada means is ARX and ARX alone, not sludge that has been liquified by ARX and trapped in the filter media. If someone uses ARX and they don't suspect that their filter media will get loaded with sludge...then clearly they don't even know what ARX is for.


Exactly. The instructions indicate that you're supposed to be checking the filter and changing if it's getting filled with what's being cleaned out.

My other point was that the bypass system will ensure that there's still oil flow, so the filter clogging shouldn't be a factor unless the bypass system isn't working properly. That would then be a mechanical problem to address. ADBV can still be an issue.

 

[c3po]

ARX made my lifters noisy? [Re: greenaccord02]
c3po



bruce381
Tribologist


Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3211
Loc: Millbrae, CA quote:
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Originally posted by 97tbird:
if the noise is "clean" metal getting oil for the 1st time, that means: the "dirty" metal, which did NOT get oil earlier, was silent. Why would dirty, NON-lubricated metal withOUT oil be quiet, and clean, LUBRICATED metal noisy?
I didn't know that a non-lubricated engine (or engine parts) can be quieter...
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Agree.. ALL wear areas in an engine are "clean" the constant slideing keeps it clean the area's that could be cleaned to new, are areas that DO NOT have slideing/rubbing areas. The RX may clean everything but any sliding/rubbing bearing etc is already clean due to motion, The RX may open up cause "chunks" of varnish and sludge to move aroung and can clog drian holes and impact seals untill fully cleaned out.
bruce

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[Trav]

I think i get it! Moving parts that have not seen oil in a long time are quiet,now they get oil for the first time they are getting noisy.
Holy smokes and here i was thinking that moving parts run dry would just wear themselves out or seize in short order. Anybody got a large suspension bridge they want to sell me?