US, UK to Share Nuclear Sub Tech - New AUKUS Security Pact

This is a gloriously ridiculous idea, so if it came from the French perhaps its true 😁 The internal arrangements of a submarine are incredibly complex and the sorts of allowances and accommodations necessary to permit a change of this magnitude would be huge.

This is all about the improved capability over a diesel vs. the pacing threat. Throw in some apparently lousy results to date from the deal with France and it was probably a pretty easy call for the Aussies. And it works out great for us because there'll be another dozen Virginia class subs out there, fighting on our side.

jeff


A couple of notes. First, the Aussies were deceived by the French right off the bat as the deal was for the submarines to be built in Australia. That was a key point of the contract. Right after the deal was signed French leaders announced the deal would create 4000 jobs in France. Apparently there was a failure to communicate.


Second, Australia is huge as we all know and it has a strategic location for the South Pacific, Asia and the Indian Ocean where these subs will be patrolling. The idea of not having to refuel at every corner is a huge benefit for the Australians.
 

And it works out great for us because there'll be another dozen Virginia class subs out there, fighting on our side.​


jeff
The United States is not selling or licensing the technology to build Virginia class submarines, to Australia nor anyone else. That is not for sale at any price. The US will help them build submarines that are nuclear powered.
 
A couple of notes. First, the Aussies were deceived by the French right off the bat as the deal was for the submarines to be built in Australia. That was a key point of the contract. Right after the deal was signed French leaders announced the deal would create 4000 jobs in France. Apparently there was a failure to communicate.


Second, Australia is huge as we all know and it has a strategic location for the South Pacific, Asia and the Indian Ocean where these subs will be patrolling. The idea of not having to refuel at every corner is a huge benefit for the Australians.

Then why didn't they make a deal for nuclear subs to start with? seems a lot like buyers remorse to me.
 
The United States is not selling or licensing the technology to build Virginia class submarines, to Australia nor anyone else. That is not for sale at any price. The US will help them build submarines that are nuclear powered.
Maybe, the reporting (possibly incorrectly) seems to indicate some sort of licensing or perhaps derivative of the Virginia or UK Astute class, to be built there in Australia. Either way it'll be great to have 8 of those (the reported figure, vs. the 12 I noted earlier) being operated by an ally in the region.
 
Maybe, the reporting (possibly incorrectly) seems to indicate some sort of licensing or perhaps derivative of the Virginia or UK Astute class, to be built there in Australia. Either way it'll be great to have 8 of those (the reported figure, vs. the 12 I noted earlier) being operated by an ally in the region.


I read somewhere that the US was willing to lend older submarines to Australia to get them up and running quickly in regards to training and logistics etc.

Another aspect of this deal that is overlooked is that the USN and USCG would have a Australian base to use for forward operations much like Yokosuka in Japan though perhaps not that big.
 
I think this will lead to an EU military alliance, and possibly bad news for NATO.
Doubt that would ever happen as they would stand the risk of losing all the money from American taxpayers, who literally write a blank check for them. For us, it would be a home run, let them protect themselves with their money. (just my thoughts)
 
Since the Cold War ended, NATO has had no relevance except to keep a lot of bureaucrats employed.
Russia may not be much of a threat any more, but an additional important goal of NATO is to keep Western European countries from starting wars with each other. The commitment of the USA to immediately come to the defense of any NATO country that is attacked (even by another NATO country) is a strong deterrent.
 
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On a more serious note, is this also the Australian government start of introducing the concept of domestic nuclear energy for a country that is strongly reliant on fossil fuel for power production? Granted, not the central reason for the subs, but a little side idea that is coming along for the ride.
Yep, my Aussie nuke friends are quite excited about this, they see it as the tip of the spear.
 
Then why didn't they make a deal for nuclear subs to start with? seems a lot like buyers remorse to me.
They were going to, but apparently the Aussies didn't want nuclear subs then. This is a recent change in policy. My understanding is that the subs that the Aussies were buying from the French were originally a nuke design but were being converted, which make it more complicated, hence the delays.
 
The plan was to covert them later again to nukes, when the political situation was right. Guess that happened sooner than expected.


I think the Aussies realized the flaw in that plan. I don’t know the realistic time frame but it’s possible it could take ten years to convert those subs plus set up logistics, training etc.

A lot can happen in those ten years.
 
I wonder about the financial closeness the political class in the U.S and Aus. has with China. This will be an opened door for China to acquire the U.S. sub tech.
 
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Those French subs would NEVER be converted to nukes. No way, no how would the Ausies be able to pay for that, either monetarily nor in political capital.

I haven’t heard anything about us giving them old subs to spin up with. What I CAN see is us giving them an old sub or subs to use as moored training shipsbro get their guys used to working in a sub-like environment on an actual nuclear plant.
 
I'm writing this based on the "official" middle school history book where I was raised (due to historical reason the history book ends at 1949 so it won't offend any then current government in Taiwan and Mainland).

The PRC curriculum? You often mention Chiang, but what about Mao? What was he doing at this time?

1) Russia and Japan's hostility goes way back, so far back many Russians blame their empire's collapse to their loss to Japan in Siberia and their control of North East China (a huge piece of land was lost from China to Russia back then, and then to Japan, and then finally some part of it back to China). If you ever see the photo of Abe visiting Putin you'll see Putin greeted Abe with a pit bull or similar, and Abe was playing with that dog like a friend's house pet.

There has always been varying degrees of hostility between Japan and Russia/USSR including border clashes. But the collapse of the Russian Empire happened in 1917 and the Russians lost very little in terms of land to the Japanese. The Russians still controlled Siberia and basically only lost the ability to block Japanese expansion into places like Korea...

2) KMT back in the Sun Yat Sen's day (the brother in law of Chang Kai Shek) was actually very pro Japan. Back when the Manchurians' Qing dynasty was still around, students went to Japan for college, and formed the revolutionary militia who later became the KMT / Revolutionary party. After Sun Yat Sen's death there's a power struggle between the pro Japan Wang Jingwei fraction and the pro America Chang Kai Shek fraction. The party actually split in 2 during WW2 after the capture of Nanking (the former capital). As expected the Wang's fraction surrendered and resume civil government operation while Chang's fraction retreated to fight. At the same time these 2 fractions send assassins to each other, and at the same time fighting the USSR backed CCP led by Mao. As you might expect in this 4 way war, Japan easily captured a lot of area very quickly, and many of the civilians got very upset about how incompetents were their warlords.

You keep mentioning Chiang and he doesn't have the greatest reputation in the US/West nor the East. Some is deserved and some is unfair. But WGAF about his "brother" and his supposed sympathies for the Imperial Japanese? Yeah, okay, did that prevent China from resisting them and suffering massive casualties?

I also notice as stated above you never mention the elephant in the room named Mao. What was he doing during the Japanese invasion of China? Sort of resisting and cooperating with Chiang and the Nationalists. But also hoarding a large portion of his forces and sitting them out from the fight so they could attack the Nationalists after the then inevitable IJA defeat and retreat from China while Chiang, a very imperfect prick in his own right, gave pretty much all as singularly resisted the Japanese despite whatever trivial crap you want to tripe here...

3) Japan's puppet nation in the north (Manchuria), figure headed by the former empire of Qing, was captured by USSR right before Japan surrendered, with industrial infrastructure striped and sent to USSR. The location was hold by USSR and then given to Mao and became the base where CCP advanced southward.

Pretty much Soviet policy at the time, take the war booty to offset your massive losses in men and material. It wasn't their first dance against the arrogant IJA, an army that was completely devoid of strategic maneuver or tank/antitank capabilities...

4) Due to the power struggle between Chang's and Wang's fractions, many of the KMT military eventually defect to Mao, including the officers from the famous Whampoa Military Academy (sort of like the West Point in the US). Chang was not a competent military leader and he prioritize his own power over his military campaign. He had a tendency of imprisoning or executing his own generals when they became too influential or seen as a rising star in foreign political circle (this continue well into his days after retreating to Taiwan). Oftentimes he would use generals he could trust but lost the entire force, running away from the post, hiding in the mountain instead of at the frontline, etc. Chang and his family was also famous for being very corrupted (according to Truman's note). What's more? He passed his presidential position to his son after he died (fortunately his son was actually a very competent and good politician who laid the good foundation of today's Taiwan).

Yeah um the above is just a lot of simplistic BS. Yes some defected and all that, but one of the main reasons the Nationalists lost the civil war with Mao's communists was war weariness. The Kuomintang with all of their failings, resisted the Imperial Japanese to the bitter end while the PRC rested large parts of their forces with a nod-wink at Japanese forces enjoying implied truces. The Kuomintang Nationalist Army suffered massive losses of men and material had to be rebuilt several times over. Not that the PLA didn't, but they rested large parts of their "guerilla army" and they were waiting to pounce once the Japanese withdrew.

As far as "Truman's note", a lot of that racist bias came from US Army Gen. Stillwell, the main US commander in the theater who was a bit of a notorious prick and pretty much unliked by everyone from those in his own command to the British and of course Chinese. He did some good things and had organizational talents, but he was very limited in strategic vision and Chiang was in fact probably the better leader that actually understood how to withstand the Japanese onslaught and maintain control. And of course Truman needed a scapegoat for the fall in 1949, but of course things simply aren't that simple. Both Stillwell and every US political leader failed to grasp that Chiang was fighting a two-front war. One against the Japanese, the other against the PLA. The PLA was basically fighting one while pretending to fight the 'other'...
 
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The PRC curriculum? You often mention Chiang, but what about Mao? What was he doing at this time?



There has always been varying degrees of hostility between Japan and Russia/USSR including border clashes. But the collapse of the Russian Empire happened in 1917 and the Russians lost very little in terms of land to the Japanese. The Russians still controlled Siberia and basically only lost the ability to block Japanese expansion into places like Korea...



You keep mentioning Chiang and he doesn't have the greatest reputation in the US/West nor the East. Some is deserved and some is unfair. But WGAF about his "brother" and his supposed sympathies for the Imperial Japanese? Yeah, okay, did that prevent China from resisting them and suffering massive casualties?

I also notice as stated above you never mention the elephant in the room named Mao. What was he doing during the Japanese invasion of China? Sort of resisting and cooperating with Chiang and the Nationalists. But also hoarding a large portion of his forces and sitting them out from the fight so they could attack the Nationalists after the then inevitable IJA defeat and retreat from China while Chiang, a very imperfect prick in his own right, gave pretty much all as singularly resisted the Japanese despite whatever trivial crap you want to tripe here...



Pretty much Soviet policy at the time, take the war booty to offset your massive losses in men and material. It wasn't their first dance against the arrogant IJA, an army that was completely devoid of strategic maneuver or tank/antitank capabilities...



Yeah um the above is just a lot of simplistic BS. Yes some defected and all that, but one of the main reasons the Nationalists lost the civil war with Mao's communists was war weariness. The Kuomintang with all of their failings, resisted the Imperial Japanese to the bitter end while the PRC rested large parts of their forces with a nod-wink at Japanese forces enjoying implied truces. The Kuomintang Nationalist Army suffered massive losses of men and material had to be rebuilt several times over. Not that the PLA didn't, but they rested large parts of their "guerilla army" and they were waiting to pounce once the Japanese withdrew.

As far as "Truman's note", a lot of that racist bias came from US Army Gen. Stillwell, the main US commander in the theater who was a bit of a notorious prick and pretty much unliked by everyone from those in his own command to the British and of course Chinese. He did some good things and had organizational talents, but he was very limited in strategic vision and Chiang was in fact probably the better leader that actually understood how to withstand the Japanese onslaught and maintain control. And of course Truman needed a scapegoat for the fall in 1949, but of course things simply aren't that simple. Both Stillwell and every US political leader failed to grasp that Chiang was fighting a two-front war. One against the Japanese, the other against the PLA. The PLA was basically fighting one while pretending to fight the 'other'...
Agree quite a bit about what you said.

"The PRC curriculum?" The one from Hong Kong back before 1997, so it was the "British" curriculum. Since the 1967 Riot they basically won't let the locals side with one or the other and get the Brits business interest in crossfire. Torturing the communist rioters and expelling mob boss / former KMT generals to Taiwan all the same. This is why the history book stopped at 1949 exactly, with the common understanding that you cannot be unbiased with recent history.

I don't hold any good opinion of Mao (despite my parents grew up brainwashed thinking he was a saint because he lost his son in the Korean war and he was the Robinhood who rob the land from the wealthy landowners and gave them to the peasants. It's good to have multiple sources of news and history so we can see the **** he did back then to get to power, and the **** he did afterward every decade to purge the people from power and get the country back in poverty.
 
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