I went to a local store and made a purchase, the item was $8.00. I noticed when I left the cash register said $0.00. I received correct change. I suspect that the clerk rang up no sale so not to report the income. With all the talk of budget deficit, I don't hear anyone mentioning the underground economy. The tax code needs to be fixed to address this. I believe that Mike Huckabee was a proponent of this. This is not political, but as someone who pays his fair share of taxes it is not right and should be addressed.
Underground econmy
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odd deal. i used to go a fast food place in the morning. the girl would some way would ring the wrong amt but i got the right change. i think she some how she was skimming money. cant remember how it worked.
I bought tires and noticed my $200 went right into the guy's pants pockets. He was training somebody so maybe he was keeping the cash drawer under scrutiny.
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It's a real issue but it can't be measured and we can't put metrics in place to say one party is better than the other at handling the issue.
For all the criminality involved in something like street level drug dealing it's also a small business. We can only do better than the double whammy of income tax evasion and welfare fraud. If we didn't have an income tax but got everyone at the gas pump or snack food store it would actually be "more fair" but one looking at the numbers would conclude it was less. The best choke point would be one with a small number of involved businesses.
But, OP, you are right, it is not talked about. My state is considering legalizing marijuana for recreational use with a $50/oz tax... ludicrously high, and how would they trust growers to report every ounce?
For all the criminality involved in something like street level drug dealing it's also a small business. We can only do better than the double whammy of income tax evasion and welfare fraud. If we didn't have an income tax but got everyone at the gas pump or snack food store it would actually be "more fair" but one looking at the numbers would conclude it was less. The best choke point would be one with a small number of involved businesses.
But, OP, you are right, it is not talked about. My state is considering legalizing marijuana for recreational use with a $50/oz tax... ludicrously high, and how would they trust growers to report every ounce?
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Things of this nature would have to be dealt with on a case to case basis and would be extremely hard to monitor honestly.
Someone will ALWAYS be abusing the system.
Someone will ALWAYS be abusing the system.
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It happens in every single "cash only" business. I'm not surprised at all. The point is, every type of taxation will be cheated in their own way. Income tax, property tax, expense tax all have loopholes, and it is easy to cheat especially if you are a small business.
Back when I went to Iffy Lube there was a privately owned shop that I went to. They had a "One Day Special" that was $20 cash only. It was a "word of mouth" deal that the guy running the shop told me.
I left to go get cash, came back, got an oil change, and that money went in his pocket.
I laughed at the time.
Actually taxation is a huge scam. Everybody knows it.
The IRS should really be called the KGB.
They pretty much have the power to ruin whoever as long as they aren't politically connected enough to make their life hard.
With 10,000 pages of "tax code", I'm pretty sure everyone who is breathing (and many who are not) are guilty of "tax evasion" to one degree or another.
I do my best to be "the good guy" and pay what I owe, but I don't pay any more than necessary. If a person really believes in Government, and the entity of Government is naturally GOOD, then leave your estate to the Feds when you kick the bucket.
That being said, at the same time I see this stuff happen all the time. Taking "Kick Backs", embezzlement, laundering, etc. It happens. It is well known in many circles. (If you are extremely good at being extremely crooked you can run for Dallas City Council!) Call it a "Black Market" or "Tax Evasion" or whatever you would like to call it. It is very popular and not frowned upon.
From what I read there are more $100 bills in circulation now than ever before. Which is a leading indicator for measurement of the "Black Market".
You cannot "close" every loophole the people that belong to the Powers that Be are to powerful. However, you can collect more by easing the burden on the LARGE middle class.
Promote the economy and the Money will grow.
Choke the economy, and it won't matter if you have a 99% tax on 99% of the population. You won't collect anything.
Tax collection is about geting some money from Most people.
You will never get %100 of what you should, but that isn't the game.
Lower the tax burden and those who ran from taxation won't find it as burdensome and will pay it to be within the law.
I left to go get cash, came back, got an oil change, and that money went in his pocket.
I laughed at the time.
Actually taxation is a huge scam. Everybody knows it.
The IRS should really be called the KGB.
They pretty much have the power to ruin whoever as long as they aren't politically connected enough to make their life hard.
With 10,000 pages of "tax code", I'm pretty sure everyone who is breathing (and many who are not) are guilty of "tax evasion" to one degree or another.
I do my best to be "the good guy" and pay what I owe, but I don't pay any more than necessary. If a person really believes in Government, and the entity of Government is naturally GOOD, then leave your estate to the Feds when you kick the bucket.
That being said, at the same time I see this stuff happen all the time. Taking "Kick Backs", embezzlement, laundering, etc. It happens. It is well known in many circles. (If you are extremely good at being extremely crooked you can run for Dallas City Council!) Call it a "Black Market" or "Tax Evasion" or whatever you would like to call it. It is very popular and not frowned upon.
From what I read there are more $100 bills in circulation now than ever before. Which is a leading indicator for measurement of the "Black Market".
You cannot "close" every loophole the people that belong to the Powers that Be are to powerful. However, you can collect more by easing the burden on the LARGE middle class.
Promote the economy and the Money will grow.
Choke the economy, and it won't matter if you have a 99% tax on 99% of the population. You won't collect anything.
Tax collection is about geting some money from Most people.
You will never get %100 of what you should, but that isn't the game.
Lower the tax burden and those who ran from taxation won't find it as burdensome and will pay it to be within the law.
Originally Posted By: SuperDave456
You cannot "close" every loophole the people that belong to the Powers that Be are to powerful. However, you can collect more by easing the burden on the LARGE middle class.
Promote the economy and the Money will grow.
Choke the economy, and it won't matter if you have a 99% tax on 99% of the population. You won't collect anything.
Tax collection is about geting some money from Most people.
You will never get %100 of what you should, but that isn't the game.
Lower the tax burden and those who ran from taxation won't find it as burdensome and will pay it to be within the law.
Sure you can close every loophole. Just pass a flat tax law. Everyone pays the same. The very wealthy do not want this as they would pay more. But the people at the bottom keep the system in place and then suffer. If everyone paid 18% flat Mitt Romney would have paid another $15MM in taxes. But all of the politicos on the left keep their jobs by letting the poor think they are getting a good deal when they get an earned income check for $4,000. This just prolongs their agony.
You cannot "close" every loophole the people that belong to the Powers that Be are to powerful. However, you can collect more by easing the burden on the LARGE middle class.
Promote the economy and the Money will grow.
Choke the economy, and it won't matter if you have a 99% tax on 99% of the population. You won't collect anything.
Tax collection is about geting some money from Most people.
You will never get %100 of what you should, but that isn't the game.
Lower the tax burden and those who ran from taxation won't find it as burdensome and will pay it to be within the law.
Sure you can close every loophole. Just pass a flat tax law. Everyone pays the same. The very wealthy do not want this as they would pay more. But the people at the bottom keep the system in place and then suffer. If everyone paid 18% flat Mitt Romney would have paid another $15MM in taxes. But all of the politicos on the left keep their jobs by letting the poor think they are getting a good deal when they get an earned income check for $4,000. This just prolongs their agony.
Originally Posted By: SuperDave456
Back when I went to Iffy Lube there was a privately owned shop that I went to. They had a "One Day Special" that was $20 cash only. It was a "word of mouth" deal that the guy running the shop told me.
I left to go get cash, came back, got an oil change, and that money went in his pocket.
I laughed at the time.
Actually taxation is a huge scam. Everybody knows it.
The IRS should really be called the KGB.
They pretty much have the power to ruin whoever as long as they aren't politically connected enough to make their life hard.
With 10,000 pages of "tax code", I'm pretty sure everyone who is breathing (and many who are not) are guilty of "tax evasion" to one degree or another.
I do my best to be "the good guy" and pay what I owe, but I don't pay any more than necessary. If a person really believes in Government, and the entity of Government is naturally GOOD, then leave your estate to the Feds when you kick the bucket.
That being said, at the same time I see this stuff happen all the time. Taking "Kick Backs", embezzlement, laundering, etc. It happens. It is well known in many circles. (If you are extremely good at being extremely crooked you can run for Dallas City Council!) Call it a "Black Market" or "Tax Evasion" or whatever you would like to call it. It is very popular and not frowned upon.
From what I read there are more $100 bills in circulation now than ever before. Which is a leading indicator for measurement of the "Black Market".
You cannot "close" every loophole the people that belong to the Powers that Be are to powerful. However, you can collect more by easing the burden on the LARGE middle class.
Promote the economy and the Money will grow.
Choke the economy, and it won't matter if you have a 99% tax on 99% of the population. You won't collect anything.
Tax collection is about geting some money from Most people.
You will never get %100 of what you should, but that isn't the game.
Lower the tax burden and those who ran from taxation won't find it as burdensome and will pay it to be within the law.
Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winner!
Back when I went to Iffy Lube there was a privately owned shop that I went to. They had a "One Day Special" that was $20 cash only. It was a "word of mouth" deal that the guy running the shop told me.
I left to go get cash, came back, got an oil change, and that money went in his pocket.
I laughed at the time.
Actually taxation is a huge scam. Everybody knows it.
The IRS should really be called the KGB.
They pretty much have the power to ruin whoever as long as they aren't politically connected enough to make their life hard.
With 10,000 pages of "tax code", I'm pretty sure everyone who is breathing (and many who are not) are guilty of "tax evasion" to one degree or another.
I do my best to be "the good guy" and pay what I owe, but I don't pay any more than necessary. If a person really believes in Government, and the entity of Government is naturally GOOD, then leave your estate to the Feds when you kick the bucket.
That being said, at the same time I see this stuff happen all the time. Taking "Kick Backs", embezzlement, laundering, etc. It happens. It is well known in many circles. (If you are extremely good at being extremely crooked you can run for Dallas City Council!) Call it a "Black Market" or "Tax Evasion" or whatever you would like to call it. It is very popular and not frowned upon.
From what I read there are more $100 bills in circulation now than ever before. Which is a leading indicator for measurement of the "Black Market".
You cannot "close" every loophole the people that belong to the Powers that Be are to powerful. However, you can collect more by easing the burden on the LARGE middle class.
Promote the economy and the Money will grow.
Choke the economy, and it won't matter if you have a 99% tax on 99% of the population. You won't collect anything.
Tax collection is about geting some money from Most people.
You will never get %100 of what you should, but that isn't the game.
Lower the tax burden and those who ran from taxation won't find it as burdensome and will pay it to be within the law.
Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winner!
go to south america- everyone seems to be hiding money
Originally Posted By: SuperDave456
Back when I went to Iffy Lube there was a privately owned shop that I went to. They had a "One Day Special" that was $20 cash only. It was a "word of mouth" deal that the guy running the shop told me.
I left to go get cash, came back, got an oil change, and that money went in his pocket.
I laughed at the time.
Actually taxation is a huge scam. Everybody knows it.
The IRS should really be called the KGB.
They pretty much have the power to ruin whoever as long as they aren't politically connected enough to make their life hard.
With 10,000 pages of "tax code", I'm pretty sure everyone who is breathing (and many who are not) are guilty of "tax evasion" to one degree or another.
I do my best to be "the good guy" and pay what I owe, but I don't pay any more than necessary. If a person really believes in Government, and the entity of Government is naturally GOOD, then leave your estate to the Feds when you kick the bucket.
That being said, at the same time I see this stuff happen all the time. Taking "Kick Backs", embezzlement, laundering, etc. It happens. It is well known in many circles. (If you are extremely good at being extremely crooked you can run for Dallas City Council!) Call it a "Black Market" or "Tax Evasion" or whatever you would like to call it. It is very popular and not frowned upon.
From what I read there are more $100 bills in circulation now than ever before. Which is a leading indicator for measurement of the "Black Market".
You cannot "close" every loophole the people that belong to the Powers that Be are to powerful. However, you can collect more by easing the burden on the LARGE middle class.
Promote the economy and the Money will grow.
Choke the economy, and it won't matter if you have a 99% tax on 99% of the population. You won't collect anything.
Tax collection is about geting some money from Most people.
You will never get %100 of what you should, but that isn't the game.
Lower the tax burden and those who ran from taxation won't find it as burdensome and will pay it to be within the law.
+1
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/08/13/government-will-take-almost-half-your-paycheck-in-2013/
It makes me sick how much of our income is taken for "taxes", "fees" or "licenses".
Back when I went to Iffy Lube there was a privately owned shop that I went to. They had a "One Day Special" that was $20 cash only. It was a "word of mouth" deal that the guy running the shop told me.
I left to go get cash, came back, got an oil change, and that money went in his pocket.
I laughed at the time.
Actually taxation is a huge scam. Everybody knows it.
The IRS should really be called the KGB.
They pretty much have the power to ruin whoever as long as they aren't politically connected enough to make their life hard.
With 10,000 pages of "tax code", I'm pretty sure everyone who is breathing (and many who are not) are guilty of "tax evasion" to one degree or another.
I do my best to be "the good guy" and pay what I owe, but I don't pay any more than necessary. If a person really believes in Government, and the entity of Government is naturally GOOD, then leave your estate to the Feds when you kick the bucket.
That being said, at the same time I see this stuff happen all the time. Taking "Kick Backs", embezzlement, laundering, etc. It happens. It is well known in many circles. (If you are extremely good at being extremely crooked you can run for Dallas City Council!) Call it a "Black Market" or "Tax Evasion" or whatever you would like to call it. It is very popular and not frowned upon.
From what I read there are more $100 bills in circulation now than ever before. Which is a leading indicator for measurement of the "Black Market".
You cannot "close" every loophole the people that belong to the Powers that Be are to powerful. However, you can collect more by easing the burden on the LARGE middle class.
Promote the economy and the Money will grow.
Choke the economy, and it won't matter if you have a 99% tax on 99% of the population. You won't collect anything.
Tax collection is about geting some money from Most people.
You will never get %100 of what you should, but that isn't the game.
Lower the tax burden and those who ran from taxation won't find it as burdensome and will pay it to be within the law.
+1
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/08/13/government-will-take-almost-half-your-paycheck-in-2013/
It makes me sick how much of our income is taken for "taxes", "fees" or "licenses".
I feel your pain and then some. By the time they take State and Federal Income Tax and the FICA taxes, my cut is just over 50% on bonus money, etc.
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
Taxes are a joke for sure. I just earned a 1500 bonus at work for doing a great job, but 550 of it went to fed tax, social security, and medicare taxes
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
Taxes are a joke for sure. I just earned a 1500 bonus at work for doing a great job, but 550 of it went to fed tax, social security, and medicare taxes
We have the lowest tax revenues as a percentage of GDP (all government levels) of any developed country except by Korea by a hair, according to the Heritage Foundation, which is a conservative outfit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
Of course, we pay 8 percent of our GDP on non-governmental health care. Its still money we pay just the same. If you add that back, we pass Japan, Australia, Ireland and end up about even with New Zealand.
A big problem is the "tax zapper" a program that systematically overrides sales here and there to understate register receipts. It costs the state of Georgia over 320 million per year. http://www.governing.com/blogs/view/uphill-battle-states-fight-tax-zappers.html
Of course, we pay 8 percent of our GDP on non-governmental health care. Its still money we pay just the same. If you add that back, we pass Japan, Australia, Ireland and end up about even with New Zealand.
A big problem is the "tax zapper" a program that systematically overrides sales here and there to understate register receipts. It costs the state of Georgia over 320 million per year. http://www.governing.com/blogs/view/uphill-battle-states-fight-tax-zappers.html
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I agree with the Texan, as usual. I should just move to Texas, already. What bothers me about Flat tax is that the low income get that earned income money back. Call me cruel, but I think a flat tax and thats it. I dont hate the rich and I dont pity the poor. I think the poor need a initiative to quit being poor. The more miserable you make them, the quicker they may change their own attitude. I would consider myself middle class. I make too much to get any tax breaks, too little to be comfortable and relaxed. I am not above going to Goodwill for jeans, so why should the poor be so protected. The Rich are ussually rich for a reason, the poor are ussually poor for a reason. I am in transition and I am not sure which direction, I am headed. But with fuel at $4 a gallon, its not helping matters.
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
...
Of course, we pay 8 percent of our GDP on non-governmental health care. Its still money we pay just the same. If you add that back, we pass Japan, Australia, Ireland and end up about even with New Zealand.
Some years ago I calculated my overall US tax rate by adding up federal and state income tax paid during a 10 year period with various yearly incomes. Unexpectedly my income tax here in New Zealand is less, despite having subsidized health care and other benefits that I did not receive in CA. This is for a single person with only standard deductions and incomes are roughly the same numerically in both countries so there is no exchange rate applied. Low income earners do get the short stick here, but they also get the same benefits.
...
Of course, we pay 8 percent of our GDP on non-governmental health care. Its still money we pay just the same. If you add that back, we pass Japan, Australia, Ireland and end up about even with New Zealand.
Some years ago I calculated my overall US tax rate by adding up federal and state income tax paid during a 10 year period with various yearly incomes. Unexpectedly my income tax here in New Zealand is less, despite having subsidized health care and other benefits that I did not receive in CA. This is for a single person with only standard deductions and incomes are roughly the same numerically in both countries so there is no exchange rate applied. Low income earners do get the short stick here, but they also get the same benefits.
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
We have the lowest tax revenues as a percentage of GDP (all government levels) of any developed country except by Korea by a hair, according to the Heritage Foundation, which is a conservative outfit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
Of course, we pay 8 percent of our GDP on non-governmental health care. Its still money we pay just the same. If you add that back, we pass Japan, Australia, Ireland and end up about even with New Zealand.
A big problem is the "tax zapper" a program that systematically overrides sales here and there to understate register receipts. It costs the state of Georgia over 320 million per year. http://www.governing.com/blogs/view/uphill-battle-states-fight-tax-zappers.html
Some governments also hide their tax in their land use and sales policy. Hong Kong for example has a very low tax rate for all (around 11-17%), and certain capital gain income like stocks and real estates are not taxed extra, yet still has very affordable health care. This is because they do not have to pay for their own defense / military expense (paid for by China) and the government has a very high land "lease" for 50 years only. This results in extremely high real estate price (more than equivalent US cities) despite their much lower income level.
So, you have to pay one way or the other.
We have the lowest tax revenues as a percentage of GDP (all government levels) of any developed country except by Korea by a hair, according to the Heritage Foundation, which is a conservative outfit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
Of course, we pay 8 percent of our GDP on non-governmental health care. Its still money we pay just the same. If you add that back, we pass Japan, Australia, Ireland and end up about even with New Zealand.
A big problem is the "tax zapper" a program that systematically overrides sales here and there to understate register receipts. It costs the state of Georgia over 320 million per year. http://www.governing.com/blogs/view/uphill-battle-states-fight-tax-zappers.html
Some governments also hide their tax in their land use and sales policy. Hong Kong for example has a very low tax rate for all (around 11-17%), and certain capital gain income like stocks and real estates are not taxed extra, yet still has very affordable health care. This is because they do not have to pay for their own defense / military expense (paid for by China) and the government has a very high land "lease" for 50 years only. This results in extremely high real estate price (more than equivalent US cities) despite their much lower income level.
So, you have to pay one way or the other.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
But, OP, you are right, it is not talked about. My state is considering legalizing marijuana for recreational use with a $50/oz tax... ludicrously high, and how would they trust growers to report every ounce?
Drug sales are the ultimate underground economy. MJ alone is one of the biggest cash crops in the US. By some estimates, it may be THE biggest.
One or two states, I think TN was one, offered tax stamps for it. The idea being that the growers/dealers would buy the tax stamps and then charge the tax to their customers. Obviously with it still being an illegal trade, they didn't sell too many tax stamps.
A $50 tax on an oz would actually be pretty reasonable for "good stuff" that is prevalent these days. That's a lower tax rate than tobacco products have in many states. An oz of something that would be "medical grade" in participating states might be $300-$400, so $50 is really peanuts, especially when spread out over smaller amounts. Dealers could tack on a few bucks to the price of "retail" amounts and get the tax back easily, and users would pay it to avoid getting busted and out of convenience. $100 an oz dope isn't so common anymore anyway, so it would be an easy $50 for the gov't to tax the bulk of it.
Like you said though, getting people to be honest about reporting it would be difficult if not impossible. I think this is a big factor in why it is still illegal...they haven't figured out how to tax it yet. It's too easy to produce and too hard to regulate.
But, OP, you are right, it is not talked about. My state is considering legalizing marijuana for recreational use with a $50/oz tax... ludicrously high, and how would they trust growers to report every ounce?
Drug sales are the ultimate underground economy. MJ alone is one of the biggest cash crops in the US. By some estimates, it may be THE biggest.
One or two states, I think TN was one, offered tax stamps for it. The idea being that the growers/dealers would buy the tax stamps and then charge the tax to their customers. Obviously with it still being an illegal trade, they didn't sell too many tax stamps.
A $50 tax on an oz would actually be pretty reasonable for "good stuff" that is prevalent these days. That's a lower tax rate than tobacco products have in many states. An oz of something that would be "medical grade" in participating states might be $300-$400, so $50 is really peanuts, especially when spread out over smaller amounts. Dealers could tack on a few bucks to the price of "retail" amounts and get the tax back easily, and users would pay it to avoid getting busted and out of convenience. $100 an oz dope isn't so common anymore anyway, so it would be an easy $50 for the gov't to tax the bulk of it.
Like you said though, getting people to be honest about reporting it would be difficult if not impossible. I think this is a big factor in why it is still illegal...they haven't figured out how to tax it yet. It's too easy to produce and too hard to regulate.
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I agree with the Texan, as usual. I should just move to Texas, already. What bothers me about Flat tax is that the low income get that earned income money back. Call me cruel, but I think a flat tax and thats it. I dont hate the rich and I dont pity the poor. I think the poor need a initiative to quit being poor. The more miserable you make them, the quicker they may change their own attitude. I would consider myself middle class. I make too much to get any tax breaks, too little to be comfortable and relaxed. I am not above going to Goodwill for jeans, so why should the poor be so protected. The Rich are ussually rich for a reason, the poor are ussually poor for a reason. I am in transition and I am not sure which direction, I am headed. But with fuel at $4 a gallon, its not helping matters.
Thing is it would all work out. What do the poor spend money on, rent, food, gasoline? Rents would go down if there were simply no takers... and the poor would be in about the same situation as before. They'd stop gallavanting around town and running cars for half an hour at the school bus stop, so gas consumption would go down too. And buy more sensible food. You are right, most poor are poor for a reason and the reason could stop anytime.
OTOH we already have a mostly flat tax; we just call it "social security". Regardless of how properly it's handled it's money taken out of peoples pockets by the gov't.
I agree with the Texan, as usual. I should just move to Texas, already. What bothers me about Flat tax is that the low income get that earned income money back. Call me cruel, but I think a flat tax and thats it. I dont hate the rich and I dont pity the poor. I think the poor need a initiative to quit being poor. The more miserable you make them, the quicker they may change their own attitude. I would consider myself middle class. I make too much to get any tax breaks, too little to be comfortable and relaxed. I am not above going to Goodwill for jeans, so why should the poor be so protected. The Rich are ussually rich for a reason, the poor are ussually poor for a reason. I am in transition and I am not sure which direction, I am headed. But with fuel at $4 a gallon, its not helping matters.
Thing is it would all work out. What do the poor spend money on, rent, food, gasoline? Rents would go down if there were simply no takers... and the poor would be in about the same situation as before. They'd stop gallavanting around town and running cars for half an hour at the school bus stop, so gas consumption would go down too. And buy more sensible food. You are right, most poor are poor for a reason and the reason could stop anytime.
OTOH we already have a mostly flat tax; we just call it "social security". Regardless of how properly it's handled it's money taken out of peoples pockets by the gov't.
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