Trees growing faster

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What I don't get is the "fight". It's obviously not fueled by the data itself.

I find it laughable that anyone would think that a collection of people would just get together and look for the most convenient doomsday scenario to present to the planet.

OTOH, I can see why those who feel threatened, in terms of profits or ideology, would fight tooth and nail to dismiss any data contrary to what they believe is the only sensible way of life.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ...

I think we're at stage two..
 
Ah, but why is it apparently so difficult to understand and consider that the massive amounts we humans throw out is NOT part of any natural cycle, and should be considered in addition to what may occur naturally?
 
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Ah, but why is it apparently so difficult to understand and consider that the massive amounts we humans throw out is NOT part of any natural cycle, and should be considered in addition to what may occur naturally?

The question is whether or not those emissions have any affects. The overwhelming evidence is no.
 
Fair, I'd say. Thanks for asking.
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Ah, but why is it apparently so difficult to understand and consider that the massive amounts we humans throw out is NOT part of any natural cycle, and should be considered in addition to what may occur naturally?

The question is whether or not those emissions have any affects. The overwhelming evidence is no.


Problem in my view is that when we know the actual results of this experiment we are carrying out, we may not be happy with the results.

And there's no other petri dish to jump into.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Ah, but why is it apparently so difficult to understand and consider that the massive amounts we humans throw out is NOT part of any natural cycle, and should be considered in addition to what may occur naturally?

The question is whether or not those emissions have any affects. The overwhelming evidence is no.


Emissions have no effect?
Ever seen smog hanging over a city on a hot day?

Where's some of this overwhelming evidence, anyway?
 
We've already managed to increase the CO2 concentration by 50% since we started...that's a pretty serious "effect"
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Ah, but why is it apparently so difficult to understand and consider that the massive amounts we humans throw out is NOT part of any natural cycle, and should be considered in addition to what may occur naturally?

The question is whether or not those emissions have any affects. The overwhelming evidence is no.


I somewhat agree with this. If atmospheric CO2 levels were the MAIN driver of global temperature changes, we should be seeing a fairly massive temperature change because of man made CO2 emission increases. This large temp increase simply isn't showing up. At least not yet.

I believe changes due to natural variations in the sun's output have a much larger effect on global temps than our recent CO2 emissions. I guess this puts me squarely in the middle of these two warring GW camps.
 
There's also the lightswitch concept.

Your body can be exposed to very low levels of toxins for a very long time without any apparent effect...then one day you are on the road to destruction.

There are theories that stable states are stable, to a reasonable margin of positives and negatives. Some cooling effects are damped, some heating effects are damped...in chemical systems, it's known as buffering.

Go over to you lightswitch...push it down, increasingly harder, not much happens for a range of increasing pressures.

But when it does...your world is different.
 
Human disruption of natural carbon sinks likely has a bigger effect than burning of old stored carbon. We're catching 90% of the fish in the sea, and will soon have cut 90% of the forests.
 
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Ah, but why is it apparently so difficult to understand and consider that the massive amounts we humans throw out is NOT part of any natural cycle, and should be considered in addition to what may occur naturally?

The question is whether or not those emissions have any affects. The overwhelming evidence is no.


Emissions have no effect?
Ever seen smog hanging over a city on a hot day?

Where's some of this overwhelming evidence, anyway?

Carbon emissions that is. I thought that would have been obvious from the context of the discussion...
 
The "ingredients" of smog ( nitrous oxide and sulfur dioxide) come from the same source as carbons. Burning fossil fuel.

Also consider that the oceans are a huge carbon sink, and may well cause a lag in rising temps.
 
Quote:
Also consider that the oceans are a huge carbon sink, and may well cause a lag in rising temps.

Anything is possible, however temps have leveled off or dropped for 10 years in spite of increased emissions and atmospheric concentrations.
 
Sunspot activity has not always correlated with temperature rise and fall.

"In their Third Assessment Report, the IPCC state that the measured magnitude of recent solar variation is much smaller than the amount of predicted climate change due to greenhouse gases. [44] In 2002, Lean et al.[45] stated that while "There is ... growing empirical evidence for the Sun's role in climate change on multiple time scales including the 11-year cycle", "changes in terrestrial proxies of solar activity (such as the 14C and 10Be cosmogenic isotopes and the aa geomagnetic index) can occur in the absence of long-term (i.e., secular) solar irradiance changes ... because the stochastic response increases with the cycle amplitude, not because there is an actual secular irradiance change." They conclude that because of this, "long-term climate change may appear to track the amplitude of the solar activity cycles," but that "Solar radiative forcing of climate is reduced by a factor of 5 when the background component is omitted from historical reconstructions of total solar irradiance ...This suggests that general circulation model (GCM) simulations of twentieth century warming may overestimate the role of solar irradiance variability." More recently, a study and review of existing literature published in Nature in September 2006 suggests that the evidence is solidly on the side of solar brightness having relatively little effect on global climate, with little likelihood of significant shifts in solar output over long periods of time.[11][46] Lockwood and Fröhlich, 2007, find that there "is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century," but that "over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures."[47]

Studies that have shown that the sun may indeed have an effect on present-day climate include those by Scafetta & West, [48]. Scafetta and West claim that solar variability is a major, if not dominant climate forcing. Based on correlations between specific climate and solar forcing reconstructions, they argue that a 'realistic climate scenario is the one described by a large preindustrial secular variability (e.g., the paleoclimate temperature reconstruction by Moberg et al.)[49] with the total solar irradiance experiencing low secular variability (as the one shown by Wang et al.)[50]. Under this scenario the Sun might have contributed 50% of the observed global warming since 1900."

There's also the fact that 11 of the hottest years on record have occurred during the past 13 years.
Decreasing polar ice coverage would also seem to contradict a cooling trend.
 
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A world, cooling due to reduced sunspot activity.

Mark doesn't believe in that big fusion ball warming the earth stuff.
 
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