Trees growing faster

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Another fact is that Cap and trade Carbon tax will be most beneficial for my business.


Commie Socialist Sterile Homogenized Society Freak!!

Quote:
Coal may not do so well.


That's so unfair

Yup, it's all true.

 

[Gary Allan]

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
I thought talking about global warming was off limits on BITOG because it is such an inflammatory topic.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/posts-about-global-warming.67089/


Except for some clown making fun of disabled children, I've been impressed with the tone of this whole thread.

Maybe it IS possible for BITOGers to discuss this issue in a rational and fairly dispassionate way.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: MarkC
How about actual data?
This is a hodgepodge of inaccuracies, the one about Arctic sea ice being thicker is totally wrong.

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

Upon what do you base it on being wrong? There are 2 gov. agencies that have come to that same conclusion.

And of course those sensors never miss 500000 Km of ice or anything...
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/02/18/ns...e-last-45-days/
They use sensors on a MILITARY satellite, have faulty data, and they run it through an ever changing algorithm to get their data. Now who writes that algorithm and what is their motivation? What is their fact checking and quality control?
The entire process is very open to manipulation.

Indeed, from their own documentation:
Quote:
Some people might ask why we don’t simply switch to the EOS AMSR-E sensor. AMSR-E is a newer and more accurate passive microwave sensor. However, we do not use AMSR-E data in our analysis because it is not consistent with our historical data. Thus, while AMSR-E gives us greater accuracy and more confidence on current sea ice conditions, it actually provides less accuracy on the long-term changes over the past thirty years. There is a balance between being as accurate as possible at any given moment and being as consistent as possible through long time periods. Our main scientific focus is on the long-term changes in Arctic sea ice. With that in mind, we have chosen to continue using the SSM/I sensor, which provides the longest record of Arctic sea ice extent.

So they use the data that best fits what they want.

And they get their funding from NASA so if there are no problems, they will loose their funding.

And of couse these are the same people that predicted the North pole would melt completely last year.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment...ole-855406.html
So of course there was rapid ice growth instead.
http://thy-weapon-of-war.blogspot.com/2009/01/sea-ice-in-arctic-expanding-at-fastest.html

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Ice in the Arctic is often twice as thick as expected, report surprised scientists who returned last week from a major scientific expedition. The scientists - a 20-member contingent from Canada, the U.S., Germany, and Italy - spent one month exploring the North Pole as well as never-before measured regions of the Arctic. Among their findings: Rather than finding newly formed ice to be two metres thick, "we measured ice thickness up to four metres," stated a spokesperson for the Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research of the Helmholtz Association, Germany's largest scientific organization.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs...expedition.aspx

 

[Kestas]

These scientists can expect to lose their funding for next year. Government doesn't fund projects that don't meet their objectives on global warming.

 

[Tempest]

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/04/17/th...previous-years/
More fallacies from the NSIDC.
Quote:
“[It's] an event we don’t get to see very often,” Ted Scambos, lead scientist at the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado, said in a press statement.

Even though it happens on a regular basis.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, let's assume it's all 100% fake/false/bogus then.

Now how about figuring a way to prepare for the end of fossil fuels, Tempest. What does the market bring to the table?

 

[Tempest]

The market says that we don't need alternatives at this time. If alternatives become cheaper than oil, then they will be what the market demands.

The market brought us Amsoil, a product that you appear to be proud of.

 

[Tempest]

NASA cooking the books to make pre-1970 years look cooler, and post years look hotter:
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=63360

~70% of surveyed US temp monitoring systems do not meet quality standards:
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/resul...e_Stations.html

NASA switching months to get a higher temp, and admitting that they don't have the resources to conduct quality control on their data streams:
http://www.theresilientearth.com/?q=content/crank-week-november-17-2008-james-hansen-nasa

Mark said something about "hodgepodge of inaccuracies"...

 

[MarkC]

Ever hear of satellites?
Or actually getting data from places other than amateur, biased blogs and such?

From NOAA:

"Global Temperature Highlights – 2008

* The combined global land and ocean surface temperature from January-December was 0.88 degree F (0.49 degree C) above the 20th Century average of 57.0 degrees F (13.9 degrees C). Since 1880, the annual combined global land and ocean surface temperature has increased at a rate of 0.09 degree F (0.05 degree C) per decade. This rate has increased to 0.29 degree F (0.16 degree C) per decade over the past 30 years.

* Separately, the global land surface temperature for 2008, through December, was sixth warmest, with an average temperature 1.46 degrees F (0.81 degree C) above the 20th Century average of 47.3 degrees F (8.5 degrees C).

* Also separately, the global ocean surface temperature for 2008, through December, was 0.67 degree F (0.37 degree C) above the 20th Century average of 60.9 degrees F (16.1 degrees C) and ranked tenth warmest.

Global Temperature Highlights – December 2008

* The December combined global land and ocean surface temperature was 0.86 degree F (0.48 degree C) above the 20th Century average of 54.0 degrees F (12.2 degrees C).

* Separately, the December 2008 global land surface temperature was 1.22 degrees F (0.68 degree C) above the 20th Century average of 38.7 degrees F (3.7 degrees C) and ranked 14th warmest.

* For December, the global ocean surface temperature was 0.74 degree F (0.41 degree C) above the 20th Century average of 60.4 degrees F (15.7 degrees C) and tied with December 2001 and December 2005 as sixth warmest.

Other Global Highlights for 2008

* The United States recorded a preliminary total of 1,690 tornadoes during 2008, which is well above the 10-year average of 1,270 and ranks as the second highest annual total since reliable records began in 1953. The high number of tornado-related fatalities during the first half of the year made 2008 the 10th deadliest with a 2008 total of 125 deaths.

* Northern Hemisphere snow cover extent in December was 16.95 million square miles (43.91 million square kilometers). This was 0.17 million square miles (0.43 million square kilometers) above the 1966-2008 December average. Northern Hemisphere snow cover extent was below average for most of 2008.

* Arctic sea ice extent in 2008 reached its second lowest melt season extent on record in September. The minimum of 1.80 million square miles (4.67 million square kilometers) was 0.80 million square miles (2.09 million square kilometers) below the 1979-2000 average minimum extent. "

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Ever hear of satellites?

Sure, I just posted several things that can go wrong with them.

Quote:
Or actually getting data from places other than amateur, biased blogs and such?

You mean the ones that are constantly finding faults in NASA's data and methodology?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
~70% of surveyed US temp monitoring systems do not meet quality standards:


Are these the same flawed stations that you use to disprove the suggestion ..and who is setting the quality standards ..and do the quality standards alter validity of readings? Temperature measurement has been an age old technology for ..ages.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
and do the quality standards alter validity of readings?

Absolutely. The point is that the idea of the issue being "settled" is completely false. The basic data stream is FAR from reliable.

Quote:
NASA’s GISS uses a melding of surface thermometer readings around the world to create a global temperature anomaly. And the UAH uses satellites to measure temperatures of the lower or near-surface troposhere. Each thinks it has the better methodology (with, oddly, NASA fighting against the space technology). But they are giving us different answers.

For October, the GISS metric is showing the hottest October on record, nearly 0.8C hotter than it was 40 years ago in 1978 (from here).

However, the satellites are showing no such thing, showing a much cooler October, and a far smaller warming trend over the last 40 years (from here)

http://www.climate-skeptic.com/2008/11/this-is-getting-absurd.html
Temp measurements are, again, derived from algorithms that interpret information obtained by a sensor. Who is writing those algorithms and their accuracy is something that needs to be established. From what I have seen, it has not.

All this amounts to one big guess, and with billions in research money out there, that guess will go the way of being alarming.
Quote:
“NOAA’s Fiscal Year budget request for 2009 of $4.1 billion is 5 percent above Fiscal Year 2008 enacted levels of $3.9 billion.

“Almost this entire increase, though, goes toward funding the cost overruns in the troubled weather and climate satellite acquisition program.

http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=297315

 

[MarkC]

So, let's see, glaciers worldwide are showing a drastic net loss and retreat because the world is cooling? The very title of your post is about what?

 

[Shannow]

Mark,
we know that atmospheric CO2 is growing since we started this experiment...and trees are growing faster as a result, but what on Earth makes you think that humans can make global changes ?

(well other than increasing CO2 by 50%, and making the trees grow faster).

 

[wannafbody]

But is the Co2 increasing due to increasing temps? There is some evidence to suggest so.

 

[MarkC]

There's also evidence that this is opposite of what's happening.

 

[labman]

Due to conflicting evidence, we must trash what is left of our economy?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: wannafbody
But is the Co2 increasing due to increasing temps? There is some evidence to suggest so.


But Tempest is arguing that the temperature data collection that produces that evidence is flawed.