Toyota's Recall Frees Jailed Minnesota Man

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Hi Vikas,

I am in favor of a mandatory competency test that driver's license holders would have to take regularly, for example every 5 years. This test would include an eye exam, a cognitive test, and a physician's document stating physical and mental condition and impairments, and listing prescription medications.

Cheers,
-J

Originally Posted By: Vikas
I am saying lots of senior citizens have mowed down pedestrians but they are not jailed.
 
Quote:
If a driver is so blatantly incompetent that he mixes up accelerator and brake, then he is negligent as soon as he gets behind the wheel of a vehicle.


So, whomever issued him a license is criminally culpable for issuing a license to kill?

Quote:
An accelerator pedal and brake are in a different location, and muscle memory in a functional person makes it impossible to mix up the two pedals.


Is this your royal decree or are you just passing it on? I've heard that there's also some edict that only truth be spoken, and that it is impossible for two people to disagree when viewing the same event. Is this edict from the same source?

Quote:
However, a driver simply must be competent and able to operate his or her vehicle safely at all times, including fringe events.


Rhetorically sensible, but realistically an incompetent statement. You should also respect your elders, eat fruits and vegetables, obey all speed limits, never lie, and only have pure thoughts.

That's if you consider yourself a normal and well adjusted person.
 
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
Hi Vikas,

I am in favor of a mandatory competency test that driver's license holders would have to take regularly, for example every 5 years. This test would include an eye exam, a cognitive test, and a physician's document stating physical and mental condition and impairments, and listing prescription medications.

Cheers,
-J



Yawuhl, Herr J
 
Originally Posted By: John_Corey
In a healthy person with normal motor and coordination skills, mixing up accelerator and brake pedal is pretty much impossible also, because even if it happens, the lack of resistance on an accelerator will alert the operator of his or her mistake. Some may say that in the heat of the moment a person may not think clearly and have no time to react appropriately. However, a driver simply must be competent and able to operate his or her vehicle safely at all times, including fringe events. Driver training does normally not include training that deals with stopping a runaway vehicle, because common sense dictates what to do in such a case-at least if common sense is present.


Improbable yes, impossible no. Have you ever read about the AUDI 5000 fiasco? The car has nothing wrong, except the pedal is too close together that many drivers confused the 2. People accidentally press the wrong pedal all the time, most of the time they realized it right away rather than panic.

True, this guy caused death, and should be punished, but people who drink should know enough to get a ride home before he/she get the first sip instead of after a few drinks. People don't wake up one morning, get into a car, think that they might get the pedal confused that day and kill 3 people. There is a huge difference there.

In theory, every one intentionally follow the traffic rules and there should be no human error related accidents. In reality, you know the answer.

The only way for you make it impossible to mess up gas and brake is to have them on one pedal, you have to hold it mid way to coast, press down further to accelerate, let go to brake.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
I am saying lots of senior citizens have mowed down pedestrians but they are not jailed.


last time I heard this happen, a mob of people pulled the senior out and beat him senseless.
 
If he accidentally confused the accelerator pedal for the brake and panicked (which is not that uncommon when people believe they are pressing the brake), then it is negligence no question. But that doesn't mean criminal negligence and jail time. Being negligent makes you are civilly liable but not necessarily criminally liable.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
If he accidentally confused the accelerator pedal for the brake and panicked (which is not that uncommon when people believe they are pressing the brake), then it is negligence no question. But that doesn't mean criminal negligence and jail time. Being negligent makes you are civilly liable but not necessarily criminally liable.


Thank you.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
If a driver is so blatantly incompetent that he mixes up accelerator and brake, then he is negligent as soon as he gets behind the wheel of a vehicle.


So, whomever issued him a license is criminally culpable for issuing a license to kill?

Hi Gary,

Whoever licensed this driver was presumably following protocol, so there is no need to pass on guilt. Driver training is sorely lacking, so yes, better driver education should be a goal.

Quote:
An accelerator pedal and brake are in a different location, and muscle memory in a functional person makes it impossible to mix up the two pedals.


Is this your royal decree or are you just passing it on? I've heard that there's also some edict that only truth be spoken, and that it is impossible for two people to disagree when viewing the same event. Is this edict from the same source?
It's just a fact. Truth is a philosophical concept, which is why truth is in the eye of the beholder. Facts, on the other hand, are not dubious in nature. Study up on muscle memory before nixing my royal decree.

Quote:
However, a driver simply must be competent and able to operate his or her vehicle safely at all times, including fringe events.


Rhetorically sensible, but realistically an incompetent statement. You should also respect your elders, eat fruits and vegetables, obey all speed limits, never lie, and only have pure thoughts.
Then, according to you, how incompetent or impaired may a person be and still be allowed to drive?

That's if you consider yourself a normal and well adjusted person.
You mean I should be adjusted to dealing with incompetent and negligent drivers? Realizing that about one third of the drivers out there should not be allowed to drive in the first place has surely forced me to cope with new levels of blistering incompetence on a daily basis.


Cheers
-J
 
Quote:
Whoever licensed this driver was presumably following protocol, so there is no need to pass on guilt. Driver training is sorely lacking, so yes, better driver education should be a goal.


So, they're excluded from culpability since they were merely "keeping the trains on time"? It worked well at Nirenberg. (now I know for you, if I read my J. Corey's correctly, that this doesn't count and is in no way a parallel view - as HE sees it - but he forgets that all that isn't specifically excluded is 100% mandatory).

Quote:
It's just a fact.


It's an opinion. You assert that it's impossible, yet it occurs. Under your definition ..a person would have to WILLFULLY press the gas where the brake should have been applied since it's impossible to confuse the two ..when it's obvious that it is not.

You're in error.

Quote:
Then, according to you, how incompetent or impaired may a person be and still be allowed to drive?


I'm not the one issuing edicts. I realize that there will be error even from the most skilled drivers.

..or am I to assume that you are uniquely qualified to throw stones since you have never sinned behind the wheel??

Don't bother, no one will believe you.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Whoever licensed this driver was presumably following protocol, so there is no need to pass on guilt. Driver training is sorely lacking, so yes, better driver education should be a goal.


So, they're excluded from culpability since they were merely "keeping the trains on time"? It worked well at Nirenberg. (now I know for you, if I read my J. Corey's correctly, that this doesn't count and is in no way a parallel view - as HE sees it - but he forgets that all that isn't specifically excluded is 100% mandatory).

Hi Gary,
I am talking about personal responsibility as the driver of an automobile. A responsible driver must be reasonably competent. Ideally, the driving test will weed out those who are incompetent. Obviously this is not the case and accidents will always happen. However, I stand firmly by saying that a driver who steps accidentally, on the wrong pedal is incompetent to the point where he should not be driving, if he is not able to notice his error and correct. He may not have time to correct his error, but if he chooses to stomp on the gas he's just beyond help and needs to leave driving to other people.

Quote:
It's just a fact.


It's an opinion.
Muscle memory is a fact, it is not an opinion.
You assert that it's impossible, yet it occurs.
Please think about it: You have your heel planted on the floor and the foot on the accelerator. You have to break. You must lift your foot off the accelerator, swivel your foot right and step on the brake pedal. It is truly impossible to step accidentally on the gas if you are on the gas to begin with. If you step on the gas without moving your foot to the brake you must be spastic or otherwise impaired. Let me ask you Gary, have you yourself ever mixed up the accelerator and the brake? Do you think it is acceptable?

Under your definition ..a person would have to WILLFULLY press the gas where the brake should have been applied since it's impossible to confuse the two ..when it's obvious that it is not.
Mixing up the brake and accelerator ca happen only if you take your foot of either pedal and plant it on the floor of the car. This an operating error that will cause you to fail a driving test.

You're in error.
Don't be preposterous.
Quote:
Then, according to you, how incompetent or impaired may a person be and still be allowed to drive?

I'm not the one issuing edicts. I realize that there will be error even from the most skilled drivers.
Of course, everyone makes mistakes. But those who make mistakes that cost lives or that maim others due to negligence need to be prevented from doing it again. I am not saying it is easy or even possible to always draw the line between what constitutes negligence. Once again, an operating error that causes a driver to confuse two of the main controls in a car, needs to find an alternative means of transportation.

..or am I to assume that you are uniquely qualified to throw stones since you have never sinned behind the wheel??
I certainly have never mixed up gas and brake, and I have never harmed or killed another person with any vehicle.

Don't bother, no one will believe you.
Don't be so hasty. People can and will believe whatever they want.

Cheers,
-J
 
Originally Posted By: John_Corey

Please think about it: You have your heel planted on the floor and the foot on the accelerator. You have to break. You must lift your foot off the accelerator, swivel your foot right and step on the brake pedal.


Most people don't drive with their foot on the accelerate when the car is just cruising, they keep it above the accelerator. It is not only accelerate and braking in driving, you can cruise too.

Quote:
It is truly impossible to step accidentally on the gas if you are on the gas to begin with. If you step on the gas without moving your foot to the brake you must be spastic or otherwise impaired. Let me ask you Gary, have you yourself ever mixed up the accelerator and the brake? Do you think it is acceptable?[/color]

If you lift your foot off the gas and leave it mid air until you step on the brake, and by accident you step on the gas, it IS possible, not impaired, not spastic, just probability and poor reaction and panic. This happens all over the world and people get mowed down a lot. It isn't acceptable, but not impossible (although not probable if the driver is experienced and most of the time even if it happens there is enough space to react).


Mixing up the brake and accelerator ca happen only if you take your foot of either pedal and plant it on the floor of the car. This an operating error that will cause you to fail a driving test.


If no one ever make mistake, everyone always pass the driving test, there will be no traffic violation ever in the world. DMV already said average driver make one mistake every 4 miles, I guess we should re take our road test every 4 miles or ban driving all together.

But seriously, the point is you cannot guarantee anything (unless like I said, move to a single pedal driving system and you have to hold it mid way to cruise, and auto brake when you let go of your foot.


Quote:
Of course, everyone makes mistakes. But those who make mistakes that cost lives or that maim others due to negligence need to be prevented from doing it again. I am not saying it is easy or even possible to always draw the line between what constitutes negligence. Once again, an operating error that causes a driver to confuse two of the main controls in a car, needs to find an alternative means of transportation.


There is a difference between sending someone to jail for years vs banned from driving ever. I don't think you can guarantee this will never happen to you (for God's sake I hope this never happen to anyone) but consider what could happen to a typical driver before you stone someone to death.

My uncle was a truck driver and when he was backing the truck one day, his assistance who watch him backing on the street gave a wrong signal to the old lady crossing and to my uncle. My uncle mow her down and she died, should my uncle, or his assistant, or anyone go to jail? This is an unfortunate accident and the insurance paid for it. He had to quit driving since then and both he and his assistant lived with the horror every day afterward.
Click to expand...
 
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I'm more than happy to bat this back and forth with you.

I find your position both grandiose and 'noblesque'. While you've not confused the gas and brake pedal (YET), you've admitted committing errors behind the wheel. Those, even though YOU consider them "acceptable and sensibly "normal" " can result in a fatality.

You are incompetent behind the wheel. You've just not yet caused a fatality to prove it.


..but to answer the question ..have I ever hit the gas instead of the brake when intended? No, but I had some wide winter boots on in a 1980 Toyota pickup chassis and had some difficulty managing to ONLY hit the gas pedal.

Never considered that one, did you? "Muscle Memory" ..I think I would term that a "reflex" (?) won't really do much when your 4" wide foot is now 6" wide and the clearance is for 5" max. (numbers pulled out of my behind)

Wait!! I got it! A competent driver would have tested out his entire shoe inventory before buying the vehicle.

but that doesn't have squat to do with skill or "muscle memory", does it?
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: John_Corey

Please think about it: You have your heel planted on the floor and the foot on the accelerator. You have to break. You must lift your foot off the accelerator, swivel your foot right and step on the brake pedal.


Most people don't drive with their foot on the accelerate when the car is just cruising, they keep it above the accelerator.
Hi Panda Bear,

"They keep it (their foot) above the acclerator." Above how? In the air? The mistake I see sometimes is that someone takes his foot off the pedal and puts it squarely on the floor. The proper way is to leave the foot resting loosely on the accelerator pedal. If you do this, you will never have to start fumbling around for the correct pedal.


It is not only accelerate and braking in driving, you can cruise too.
When cruising you need to be especially vigilant. That's why you should not put your foot anywhere else than on the gas pedal while cruising.

Quote:
It is truly impossible to step accidentally on the gas if you are on the gas to begin with. If you step on the gas without moving your foot to the brake you must be spastic or otherwise impaired. Let me ask you Gary, have you yourself ever mixed up the accelerator and the brake? Do you think it is acceptable?[/color]

If you lift your foot off the gas and leave it mid air
The heel has to always stay on the floor. You let off the gas, swivel your foot left and are on the brake. If you have such small feet that you have to take your whole foot off the gas in an effort to step on the brake you need adjustable pedals.

until you step on the brake, and by accident you step on the gas, it IS possible, not impaired, not spastic, just probability and poor reaction and panic.
If you leave the heel on the floor, and if you still mix up right and left, then you are too unskilled or incompetent to drive.


This happens all over the world and people get mowed down a lot. It isn't acceptable, but not impossible (although not probable if the driver is experienced and most of the time even if it happens there is enough space to react).


Mixing up the brake and accelerator ca happen only if you take your foot of either pedal and plant it on the floor of the car. This an operating error that will cause you to fail a driving test.


If no one ever make mistake, everyone always pass the driving test, there will be no traffic violation ever in the world. DMV already said average driver make one mistake every 4 miles, I guess we should re take our road test every 4 miles or ban driving all together.

But seriously, the point is you cannot guarantee anything (unless like I said, move to a single pedal driving system and you have to hold it mid way to cruise, and auto brake when you let go of your foot.
So letting off the gas suddenly will cause an emergency stop. It's a brilliant idea.


Quote:
Of course, everyone makes mistakes. But those who make mistakes that cost lives or that maim others due to negligence need to be prevented from doing it again. I am not saying it is easy or even possible to always draw the line between what constitutes negligence. Once again, an operating error that causes a driver to confuse two of the main controls in a car, needs to find an alternative means of transportation.


There is a difference between sending someone to jail for years vs banned from driving ever. I don't think you can guarantee this will never happen to you (for God's sake I hope this never happen to anyone) but consider what could happen to a typical driver before you stone someone to death.
I did not suggest anybody should be stoned. I didn't even say anybody should be jailed or sent to prison. I am merely saying incompetent drivers should be weeded out.

My uncle was a truck driver and when he was backing the truck one day, his assistance who watch him backing on the street gave a wrong signal to the old lady crossing and to my uncle. My uncle mow her down and she died, should my uncle, or his assistant, or anyone go to jail? This is an unfortunate accident and the insurance paid for it. He had to quit driving since then and both he and his assistant lived with the horror every day afterward.
Did he mix up gas and brake?. If not, this story has no relevance.

Cheers,
-J
Click to expand...
 
Hi Gary,

Of course I am incompetent behind the wheel, but apparently I am a lot less incompetent compared to many others.

As for your adventures in driving with shoes unsuitable for driving, no, it's not a mistake I have ever made. Maybe keep driving shoes in the car and switch from your snow shoes or high heels before heading out.

Cheers,
-J



Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I'm more than happy to bat this back and forth with you.

I find your position both grandiose and 'noblesque'. While you've not confused the gas and brake pedal (YET), you've admitted committing errors behind the wheel. Those, even though YOU consider them "acceptable and sensibly "normal" " can result in a fatality.

You are incompetent behind the wheel. You've just not yet caused a fatality to prove it.


..but to answer the question ..have I ever hit the gas instead of the brake when intended? No, but I had some wide winter boots on in a 1980 Toyota pickup chassis and had some difficulty managing to ONLY hit the gas pedal.

Never considered that one, did you? "Muscle Memory" ..I think I would term that a "reflex" (?) won't really do much when your 4" wide foot is now 6" wide and the clearance is for 5" max. (numbers pulled out of my behind)

Wait!! I got it! A competent driver would have tested out his entire shoe inventory before buying the vehicle.

but that doesn't have squat to do with skill or "muscle memory", does it?
 
Hi all,

I just remembered a story that is related to foot gear that is not ideal or even dangerous when driving. Some years ago, I and friend of mine were going for a drive. He was wearing sandals, and he somehow managed to get the brake pedal stuck between the bottom of his foot and the top of the sole. he was unable to pull his foot off the brake pedal. This ended with an unplanned and rather uncontrolled emergency stop that could have easily gotten our vehicle rear-ended. The lesson learned? Don't wear sandals that are completely open in the toe area when driving.

I don't wear driving shoes when going for sporadic short drives, but I wear always wear shoes that have a rounded heal and a soft sole that let's me feel the pedal. The rounded heel let's me swivel my foot comfortably and it won't chew the floormat. The soft sole lets me sense the shape of the pedal.

Cheers,
-J
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
No, but I had some wide winter boots on in a 1980 Toyota pickup chassis and had some difficulty managing to ONLY hit the gas pedal.


I had boots on while I was driving an F150 (not a vehicle I normally drive) and hit both the gas and brake at the same time. I very quickly figured out what was going on and made the proper corrections.
 
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