Toyota, why are you absent from the EV races?

[JeffKeryk]

I owned a camry and several F series pickups and wouldn't deny thinking about an Ev down the road. youy havd posted your vehicles and as a car lover you Vette gives that away You bought the tesla cause you like cars. I am positive the tv news didn't sway you into buyng the Ev,. I see women painting their fingernail with one finger a different color that the rest , what herded them into doing that?

I have talked to a lot of Tesla owners and a few other EV owners. I understand that I live in a bubble; there's a lot of excess in Silicon Valley.
IMO, no one needs a Tesla. Or a BMW, Caddy, Vette, 911, Bro-Dozer, etc. You name it.

I bought the Tesla for wifey. I had had surgery on my foot from severe arthritus due to age, sports and other injuries. I could not test drive it; I didn't even drive it for months. I have come to appreciate it for its simplicity; far fewer parts in the drivetrain that work in instant harmony. No torque curve lag, no need for a multi gear transmission that robs power, etc. And the tech is like no other. Incredible car, warts and all.

I will say Teslas were (and are) status symbols, just like any expensive car. But it is also true that owner satisfaction is higher than any other vehicle. There are luxury makes that have poor reliability; leasing is the preferred ownership model for that very reason.

I cannot speak to current lady's fingernail fashion. Above my pay grade. Van Morrison once sang, "the girls get dressed up for each other..." Beyond that I am clueless.

 

[NismoNVT]

I guess you really can't fault them. Prius was always a joke vehicle to many here. They're everywhere these days! Many bought used and a number of very old ones around here now. They're definitely a solid vehicle. They must be a very big part of their business. We only have Jeep/Dodge, Ford, and Chevrolet in town so anything else new is bought out of town. It is primarly the big 3 in town with Toyota being next most common. I think it's about 45 minutes to the nearest Toyota dealer.

If you look at the a popular international metric known as the "achievement ratio", which measures how fast a car accelerates compared to its theoretical power-to-weight ratio you can see that Toyota has been focusing as you said on hybrids and phevs more so then their ICEVs. In the past, say 1990 to 2010 Toyota was the top performer in ICEVs, but after that it was more so on the p/HEV.

The BZ4x powertrain regardless of the end result, actually had a 40% improvement over TMCs current offering.

Another issue Toyo has was their plan was to make a one size fit all platform and mfg facility. Toyota dominates alot of markets, where the infrastructure isnt ready to accept EVs only or PHEVs etc. They need to be able to supply said markets without building separate production lines etc, all $$$$ costly investments. Their ideal scenario would be Plant A could output a E-TGNA-F Body on Frame Tacoma that can be equipped with EV, HEV, PHEV on the same line with the same workers, possibly on the same day. The issue as seen, was that as of right now, a good EV platform cant coexist with a good p/HEV; its one or the other. Maybe that changes in the future, or maybe thats happening in the backgrounds.

The situation right now is that I think alot of legacy OEMS have tried to make a one platform fits all powertrain types approach, and have not succeeded.

 

[JeffKeryk]

So back to what Gill Pratt, Chief Scientist at Toyota said in the article anyone have a counter argument to their own daily usage?

He hypothesized a fleet of 100 internal combustion engine cars with average emissions of 250 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometer traveled. Now, assuming a limited supply of lithium, there’s only enough of it to make 100 kilowatt-hours of batteries. Toyota’s Chief Scientist says that if it were used for a single, big battery, the average emissions of the whole fleet would drop by just 1.5 g/km.

VS

But if the small amount of lithium were spread among smaller, 1.1-kWh batteries, it would be possible to make 90 hybrid cars, which would still leave 10 traditional combustion cars, but the average emissions of the theoretical fleet would drop to a much lower 205 g/km.

According to Automotive News, Gill Pratt was inspired to dig deeper into the battery question by his own family’s experience with a Tesla Model X, which has over 300 miles of range, but the car is typically driven less than 30 miles a day, which means 90 percent of the battery is “dead weight”.

If the good Mr. Pratt said there is a limited supply of lithium, he doesn't know what he is talking about. Lithium is earth's 25th most abundant element.
Perhaps he was talking about refining lithium?

What if someone wants to drive 40 miles? Or 5,000?

 

[NismoNVT]

If the good Mr. Pratt said there is a limited supply of lithium, he doesn't know what he is talking about. Lithium is earth's 25th most abundant element.
Perhaps he was talking about refining lithium?

What if someone wants to drive 40 miles? Or 5,000?

Who controls the majority of the Lithium mines I guess was his point? Refining is also an issue, as plants take what a over a decade to take shape?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Who controls the majority of the Lithium mines I guess was his point? Refining is also an issue, as plants take what a over a decade to take shape?

So basically his article was full of holes. And the Model X dead weight is pretty riduculous, right?

I think Mr. Pratt was making excuses for why Toyota is where they are. I do believe they are moving ahead, which is good for them as a company and us as customers. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Torrid]

If you look at the a popular international metric known as the "achievement ratio", which measures how fast a car accelerates compared to its theoretical power-to-weight ratio you can see that Toyota has been focusing as you said on hybrids and phevs more so then their ICEVs. In the past, say 1990 to 2010 Toyota was the top performer in ICEVs, but after that it was more so on the p/HEV.

The BZ4x powertrain regardless of the end result, actually had a 40% improvement over TMCs current offering.

Another issue Toyo has was their plan was to make a one size fit all platform and mfg facility. Toyota dominates alot of markets, where the infrastructure isnt ready to accept EVs only or PHEVs etc. They need to be able to supply said markets without building separate production lines etc, all $$$$ costly investments. Their ideal scenario would be Plant A could output a E-TGNA-F Body on Frame Tacoma that can be equipped with EV, HEV, PHEV on the same line with the same workers, possibly on the same day. The issue as seen, was that as of right now, a good EV platform cant coexist with a good p/HEV; its one or the other. Maybe that changes in the future, or maybe thats happening in the backgrounds.

The situation right now is that I think alot of legacy OEMS have tried to make a one platform fits all powertrain types approach, and have not succeeded.

I think that'll be a hard bridge to make. EV and ICE are so different in their setups that I don't see a way to share the same platform without either big compromises or large modifications which means it makes more sense for different platforms which is more cost. It's a lot of why we see manufacturers talking about their skateboard platforms for EVs, literally any body can be made to sit on it. The same isn't the case for ICE so it's almost like starting a new company for those getting into EVs.

The only real issue aside from the BZ4x recall is just having them available to test drive then actually deliver. I mentioned before that our experience with VW was that we could drive the ID.4, but the time frame just kept expanding. The BZ4x wasn't even available to drive and this was before the recall so they weren't holding back cars. That's literally the only way we ended up with the Tesla. We weren't fans until we actually drove it.

 

[edyvw]

Do you know it is cheaper? Let's say it is... Less parts and less cost is a good thing in manufacturing.
You say installing an ipad is not a step forward; that's your opinion. Ask today's kids what they want.
In fact, it offers far more functionality than manual controls; manual controls are limited in functionality and are prone to failure. Sofeware based controls allow for OTA fixes, improvements and new functionality.

How do you know who designed the Tesla screen?
About HUD; I used to say Tesla should have HUD like our RX.
But I am wavering on that. HUD has the speed and other information on the base of the windshield. Outstanding, amazing and well done.
The Touchscreen has your speed at the top left corner of the display; just off your right hand. It becomes part of your periphreal vision.
The display also has all the lanes of the road and all the cars around you. Far more than any HUD. You would have to look at both outside mirrors, rear view mirroe and windshield at the same time to get what is just to the immeadiate right of your hand. This is what I have come to learn and what I believe you might consider. Maybe I was wrong.

Is it better? That's up to each of us. Personally I have learned to appreciate both. Now if you hit your turn signal, the Tesla Touchscreen has hands down the best image out there.

Things are changing. There is plenty of old skool out there for those who prefer it. But no HUD has the information that the Touchscreen displays. Once it became part of my periphreal vision, I found it amazing.

What do my kids want?
Well, the older one wants a garbage truck, and the younger one pink racing car.
I would prefer not to have speed limits, but some argue that it is not good.

What someone wants in the vehicle is an absolutely ridiculous proposition when it comes to the ergonomics part that has a safety aspect to it. People would not like seat belts, airbags, some gauges, etc. Yet, from an ergonomic and SAFETY standpoint of view, that is not how it works.
Cars are not designed with 100% of desire. First, the safety aspect has to be dealt with, and ergonomy is huge, one of the most important parts of it. Think about this: Honda in the previous generation of Pilot introduced a camera in right mirror to project on the screen when turning a blind spot. It was an absolutely ridiculous distraction that actually NHTSA raised the issue about and Honda removed it. I bet you someone said: excellent idea.
As Astro already told you, new airplanes come with a bunch of very cool screens (also in front of the pilot, not in the middle) but with regular gauges for a multitude of reasons. Guess what? That also raises costs. But it has to be done.
So, Tesla is skipping the safety aspect. You can call that a "different" way, but then, owners of Moskvich can also argue that it is a different way.
That iPad lowers the price.
Of course, Tesla convinced people that not having leather is cool (owners get this tingly feeling they are helping the planet, I guess?). But that is not really hard to do. People will believe what makes them feel good. My friend's dad had a power line company and a very cool office with a wet bar. He loved Johnnie Walker Blue. So this one guy would always stop by, knowing my friend's dad would offer him Blue. One day, my friend's dad got sick of it, and poured him Stock 84. Now, if you ever ingested BraKleen, trust me, it is better than Stock 84. So this guy sips and says: Ahh, Johnnie Walker, one and only.
That kind of sums up luxury and Tesla. You could sell Stock84 for the cost of Johnnie Walker Blue and rack up profit. Just a little bit of convincing.

 

[NismoNVT]

So basically his article was full of holes. And the Model X dead weight is pretty riduculous, right?

I think Mr. Pratt was making excuses for why Toyota is where they are. I do believe they are moving ahead, which is good for them as a company and us as customers. Just my 2 cents.

I dont think its full of holes, I do believe there is some merit to his argument and also some saving face PR from Toyota. If one group of folks control a set mineral, they can artificially limit its market supply regardless of its natural availability. Same with oil? If thats the future market picture they are predicting then they might be on to something.

That being said, they did try to buy out Panasonic, fail miserably (lots of things going on the background) and now are stuck with BYD as their partner.

 

[edyvw]

Seems like the simple answer is that Toyota just doesn’t want to ditch the hybrid tech they’re tens of billions of dollars and decades in to . They’ll say almost anything to keep their hybrid sales up.

I’m looking at the labor angle. I don’t know how hybrids, which are terribly complicated and time-consuming to engineer and build, will ultimately compete with the simplicity and speed of EV production.

Why would they? Call Toyota and try to order a hybrid.
As I said, the targeted audience of Toyota (or any other similar company) will jump on EV train once EV has a range of 400mls, maybe 300 doing 85-90mph, in a minivan or large SUV, being able to charge in 5min, while kids are taking a dump at gas station bathroom.
Toyota Sienna hybrid can do that, but Tesla & Co cannot.

 

[OVERKILL]

I think that'll be a hard bridge to make. EV and ICE are so different in their setups that I don't see a way to share the same platform without either big compromises or large modifications which means it makes more sense for different platforms which is more cost. It's a lot of why we see manufacturers talking about their skateboard platforms for EVs, literally any body can be made to sit on it. The same isn't the case for ICE so it's almost like starting a new company for those getting into EVs.

The only real issue aside from the BZ4x recall is just having them available to test drive then actually deliver. I mentioned before that our experience with VW was that we could drive the ID.4, but the time frame just kept expanding. The BZ4x wasn't even available to drive and this was before the recall so they weren't holding back cars. That's literally the only way we ended up with the Tesla. We weren't fans until we actually drove it.

Have you driven the e-tron, i4, iX or any of the non-Tesla mainstream EV's? My favourite by far is the i4 M50, and that's based on BMW's CLAR architecture. It has its own floor pan but shares many body and interior bits with the 3 and 4-series and of course looks like a 3/4 series.

 

[JeffKeryk]

What do my kids want?
Well, the older one wants a garbage truck, and the younger one pink racing car.
I would prefer not to have speed limits, but some argue that it is not good.

What someone wants in the vehicle is an absolutely ridiculous proposition when it comes to the ergonomics part that has a safety aspect to it. People would not like seat belts, airbags, some gauges, etc. Yet, from an ergonomic and SAFETY standpoint of view, that is not how it works.
Cars are not designed with 100% of desire. First, the safety aspect has to be dealt with, and ergonomy is huge, one of the most important parts of it. Think about this: Honda in the previous generation of Pilot introduced a camera in right mirror to project on the screen when turning a blind spot. It was an absolutely ridiculous distraction that actually NHTSA raised the issue about and Honda removed it. I bet you someone said: excellent idea.
As Astro already told you, new airplanes come with a bunch of very cool screens (also in front of the pilot, not in the middle) but with regular gauges for a multitude of reasons. Guess what? That also raises costs. But it has to be done.
So, Tesla is skipping the safety aspect. You can call that a "different" way, but then, owners of Moskvich can also argue that it is a different way.
That iPad lowers the price.
Of course, Tesla convinced people that not having leather is cool (owners get this tingly feeling they are helping the planet, I guess?). But that is not really hard to do. People will believe what makes them feel good. My friend's dad had a power line company and a very cool office with a wet bar. He loved Johnnie Walker Blue. So this one guy would always stop by, knowing my friend's dad would offer him Blue. One day, my friend's dad got sick of it, and poured him Stock 84. Now, if you ever ingested BraKleen, trust me, it is better than Stock 84. So this guy sips and says: Ahh, Johnnie Walker, one and only.
That kind of sums up luxury and Tesla. You could sell Stock84 for the cost of Johnnie Walker Blue and rack up profit. Just a little bit of convincing.

Well I'll remember where I heard it first. Tesla is Stock84. Got it.
By the way, I don't drink alcohol, so Stock84 doesn't mean anything to me. But you go right ahead if you want to.

 

[Torrid]

Why would they? Call Toyota and try to order a hybrid.
As I said, the targeted audience of Toyota (or any other similar company) will jump on EV train once EV has a range of 400mls, maybe 300 doing 85-90mph, in a minivan or large SUV, being able to charge in 5min, while kids are taking a dump at gas station bathroom.
Toyota Sienna hybrid can do that, but Tesla & Co cannot.

Because that's as much as they can get from Toyota, or not, because they can't deliver them. It would happen with EV if they had a viable one to deliver. Proof you have no experience with electric with the last part. I don't know if you have kids but this is a 15 minute process no matter how hard you try which is enough time to supercharge. Get a clue and back off your projection of what it's like to actually operate an electric car. It's hard to read when you know what it's actually like to use an electric car from a person who has read some things on the internet. It's like someone trying to explain to me how to play Enter Sandman from someone who's never even touched a guitar before.

 

[Torrid]

Have you driven the e-tron, i4, iX or any of the non-Tesla mainstream EV's? My favourite by far is the i4 M50, and that's based on BMW's CLAR architecture. It has its own floor pan but shares many body and interior bits with the 3 and 4-series and of course looks like a 3/4 series.

The VW ID.4 was the only one I was able to drive. Every car you mentioned is more expensive than I was looking to spend so they weren't considered and new BMWs aside from driving dynamics is ugly as sin, I'm sorry. I've historically loved BMW. The starting point of the BMW i4 M50 was already $4k more than the purchase price of our Tesla.

Regardless of price which Tesla won the charging network is a huge win here. I hate to be that guy but that adds a lot of reassurance for a trip.

 

[edyvw]

Because that's as much as they can get from Toyota, or not, because they can't deliver them. It would happen with EV if they had a viable one to deliver. Proof you have no experience with electric with the last part. I don't know if you have kids but this is a 15 minute process no matter how hard you try which is enough time to supercharge. Get a clue and back off your projection of what it's like to actually operate an electric car. It's hard to read when you know what it's actually like to use an electric car from a person who has read some things on the internet. It's like someone trying to explain to me how to play Enter Sandman from someone who's never even touched a guitar before.

So you are saying Tesla has a vehicle with 7-8 seats that can go from Colorado Springs to Las Vegas in the same amount of time as, let's say, my Atlas? Is that why every Tesla driver I have seen on a road trip to CA this Christmas drives 20mph below the speed limit?
So I made a road trip of 2,800 miles for Christmas (got screwed by Southwest), two kids, my wife, and around 670 lbs of weight in the vehicle (Tiguan) with 16cu ft Yakima on the rooftop.
Do you say you can be as fast as I do? Doing 90moph on I70, I15, occasionally 100mph, and reaching your destination at the same time?

 

[Torrid]

So you are saying Tesla has a vehicle with 7-8 seats that can go from Colorado Springs to Las Vegas in the same amount of time as, let's say, my Atlas? Is that why every Tesla driver I have seen on a road trip to CA this Christmas drives 20mph below the speed limit?
So I made a road trip of 2,800 miles for Christmas (got screwed by Southwest), two kids, my wife, and around 670 lbs of weight in the vehicle (Tiguan) with 16cu ft Yakima on the rooftop.
Do you say you can be as fast as I do? Doing 90moph on I70, I15, occasionally 100mph.

What the **** is your problem? We obviously need two different vehicles. Nothing is one size fits all. I bought the car that made sense for MY FAMILY. You're taking this way too personally.

100mph? You can break the law? Good for you. You're definitely not the ******e here. Not sure what Teslas you see driving 20 under. I've never seen them not keep pace here. That could be a difference in where we live though.

 

[OVERKILL]

The VW ID.4 was the only one I was able to drive. Every car you mentioned is more expensive than I was looking to spend so they weren't considered and new BMWs aside from driving dynamics is ugly as sin, I'm sorry. I've historically loved BMW. The starting point of the BMW i4 M50 was already $4k more than the purchase price of our Tesla.

Regardless of price which Tesla won the charging network is a huge win here. I hate to be that guy but that adds a lot of reassurance for a trip.

I ask because these are all shared architecture vehicles (as is the Mach-E, which I've also driven) but in driving them, I didn't find that a detriment. I did find materials selection to be significantly better as well.

The new, massive, BMW grille is certainly, ummm, interesting? LOL! I think the iX is pretty ugly but don't mind the look of the i4, particularly if blacked-out, which makes the grille more sedate.

I've got reviews of some of them posted on here.

Amusingly, my wife very much liked the extremely odd iX, despite its obvious ugliness. I couldn't understand why

We were also shopping the Model Y Performance, but I just couldn't get past the interior materials and lack of HUD or gauge cluster.

 

[edyvw]

What the **** is your problem? We obviously need two different vehicles. Nothing is one size fits all. I bought the car that made sense for MY FAMILY. You're taking this way too personally.

100mph? You can break the law? Good for you. You're definitely not the ******e here. Not sure what Teslas you see driving 20 under. I've never seen them not keep pace here. That could be a difference in where we live though.

Wait, you first said I don’t know how this works, I gave you real life example, and then you go ballistic?
So basically what you saying is, no, EV can’t do that.
You said you are buying vehicle for your family? Sure. I drive also the way I want to drive (and yes, you won’t see Tesla or any other EV passing anyone on I70, bcs. bit “hilly”) so I will exploit vehicle way I want. And doing 100 on I70 in Utah is really not an achievement.
So, until EV can do this, it won’t be mainstream. That is the point. On I70 in UT you have soccer mom doing 100 with Odyssey.
Thank you.

 

[Torrid]

I ask because these are all shared architecture vehicles (as is the Mach-E, which I've also driven) but in driving them, I didn't find that a detriment. I did find materials selection to be significantly better as well.

The new, massive, BMW grille is certainly, ummm, interesting? LOL! I think the iX is pretty ugly but don't mind the look of the i4, particularly if blacked-out, which makes the grille more sedate.

I've got reviews of some of them posted on here.

Amusingly, my wife very much liked the extremely odd iX, despite its obvious ugliness. I couldn't understand why

I'm sure it drives great for sure. BMW has driving dynamics down. Cost was definitely a consideration. I'd have to see how close a BMW dealer is to us. Probably an hour? To be fair it wasn't a consideration though. The iX is funky. I know SUVs are the most popular segment in the US but we were trying to get out of that. Surprisingly that's hard to get out of no matter what your powerplant is. Everyone is discontinuing cars.

I had to look at it looks like the BMW i4 M50 is a recently available car. Have deliveries been made? We went into the ID.4 order by 7 months at least by the time that we switched to the Model 3 and decided we didn't want an SUV anyway. That did weigh a lot on our decision as we were trying to replace a vehicle I was tired of putting money into that was crying for more. I'm not even sure the i4 M50 would have been a quicker delivery option if it was available at that time. Things have widened since then and I can't say much as I'm not shopping for a car now so I'm sure it has changed, but there wasn't much option after trying VW(couldn't deliver), Kia(couldn't get a test drive), Hyundai(couldn't get a test drive), Audi(couldn't get a test drive, but it was a more expensive ID.4), Toyota(couldn't get a test drive and didn't want to sell us one). The market is widening, but it still feels narrow. Like I've said before I didn't think we'd be buying a Tesla.

 

[Torrid]

Wait, you first said I don’t know how this works, I gave you real life example, and then you go ballistic?
So basically what you saying is, no, EV can’t do that.
Thank you.

I really think you might be mentally deficient. Do you just want to argue? I explain why my car works for me and you say "no you're wrong and it's a poor design".

It's not for you, that's fine. I feel like I've said that like 5 times now. Why am I supposed to sell it to you? You just want to prove to yourself that you're right. I don't give a **** what you think. You've just come into a thread about electric cars bitching about them. If you wanted an electric vehicle you'd find the one that fits your needs, not get me to justify why I bought one. Guess what? There's one in my garage right now and it works for me. Maybe it doesn't work for you. Maybe you've decided you have no desire to actually consider it. That's fine too.

How did this conversation start in the first place?

*edit* I can't help but point out after thinking about it that you're traveling with your family at 100 miles an hour on the highway. You're an absolute moron and you should seek help. Justify it any way you want, it's wrong. We all share these roads. Psychopath. Seriously.

 

[edyvw]

I really think you might be mentally deficient. Do you just want to argue? I explain why my car works for me and you say "no you're wrong and it's a poor design".

It's not for you, that's fine. I feel like I've said that like 5 times now. Why am I supposed to sell it to you? You just want to prove to yourself that you're right. I don't give a **** what you think. You've just come into a thread about electric cars bitching about them. If you wanted an electric vehicle you'd find the one that fits your needs, not get me to justify why I bought one. Guess what? There's one in my garage right now and it works for me. Maybe it doesn't work for you. Maybe you've decided you have no desire to actually consider it. That's fine too.

How did this conversation start in the first place?

You are the one that felt you got called on. Sell it to me? I don’t need to explain why I buy certain cars, but it seems you really have a need to justify purchase.
When I said that Tesla can’t perform as ICE, meaning range, flexibility of it, you said I don’t understand how it works (well, I am mentally deficient, so take that into consideration) and gave you real life scenario, and you went ballistic for whatever reason.
Do you really think someone here is expecting that you will change your mind and go sell your Tesla? Or that I really care what you drive? As far as I am concerned, you can buy one of those electric cars in Wal Mart for 3yrs olds, and haul family.