Toyota Sienna Engine Pictures - Valve Cover Removed - 1MZ-FE

[JohnBrowning]

What boggles my mind about Chevron Supreme is it's low flash point. I used Chevron Supreme 10W30 as a break in oil and it worked well. I had something like 4000 miles on it and it still locked clean! It did not consume a drop. I can not understand how this is possable with such a low flash point!

I have to agree that 2000 mile OCI is not going to allow any build up at all. When I used to use conventional oil and 1800-2000 mile OCI I never had any issues at all with build up.

It apears that my local Walmart is no longer carrying Chevron Supreme. THe last two times I have gone their the shelfs were empty of Chevron and other oils were in their place on the shelf!

 

[scooter996]

First off I dont know who told you that I am so knowledgable about oil. I just call them like I see them. If it wasnt for this problem I would not have aquired as many Toyota dealers as I have. Can I have your emal address so I can take some pics at my competitors shops which use Pennzoil and work on Toyotas for proof? Or I can just forward you a letter from a service manager to help support the "myth". Everybody in this industry knows that Toyota and Honda owners are the most loyal customer base who maintain their cars, preventive maintence, more than anyone else. A hand full of customers not changing oil arent going to ruin it for everyone.

 

[scooter996]

I know that Pennzoil is a quality product, always has and always will. There are no issues of this "sludge" problem anywhere else other than with the flawed design of this 1 Toyota engine. When I compete against Pennzoil at Honda or any other brand make of car your right there are no issues, "sludge". I am just saying that in this rare instance or case there is a problem. Not every car comes back. Once the port is enlarged there are no more issues even after its refilled with Pennzoil. Please dont take this the wrong way. I talk to the mechanics in the back of these shops daily so my knowledge is coming from them. I think you'll agree NO ONE makes a poor quality product on the market today. This is a Toyota flaw not a pennzoil formulation problem. I apologize. Maybe its just luck with the delaers I work with. Ill chalk it up to that.

 

[widman]

I must have missed something. According to the sheets the Chevron Supreme has flash points between 435 F and 460 F depending on the viscosity. That's higher than most.

 

[Ferb]

quote:

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Originally posted by widman:
I must have missed something. According to the sheets the Chevron Supreme has flash points between 435 F and 460 F depending on the viscosity. That's higher than most.

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Agreed, but the Supreme 10w-30 VOA posted by Calvin show a 365F flash.

ferb!

 

[TSoA]

quote:

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why spend the money on 93 octane gasoline

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You are not just getting octane. Premium grades have more and better fuel injector cleaners. A trade magazine I saw at my mechanics (he is a fuel expert) where they random tested regular grade gas and found much less then the ~required~ amount of FI cleaners at all stations.

 

[Johnny]

Since scooter996 put the name of Pennzoil out there, I figure I better stand up for the product I sell and the company I work for.

I have been selling Pennzoil to some of the largest Toyota dealers in Wisconsin since 1989, and as of this date I have never seen one with sludge because it used Pennzoil.

 

[greencrew]

Wow, 2000 mile oil changes. It would be great if you could find a place to mount a by-pass and change the filter every 2k with fresh oil.

 

[scooter996]

In a high-powered or turbocharged engine (mostly found in sports cars) the gasoline injected in the cylinders is put under intense pressure and temperature. With a low octane level, the gasoline may ignite early and cause a vibration that generates a metallic sound called "ping." We must prevent this spontaneous combustion of the gas-air mixture to happen before the spark is produced by the sparkplug, because this could damage the engine. In this instance we have to use a fuel with a higher octane level ("premium," that is an octane level of 91 or more).

Most cars come with engines designed to run on "regular" gasoline (octane level 87). These engines do not compress the gas-air mixture as much as the high-powered engines. So it serves no purpose to fill up our car with "premium" when the engine does not require it, since it is the fuel's heating attributes (combustion heat), and not its octane level, that determines its power efficiency.

Fuel consumption is determined by a number of factors: low-pressured tires, wind factor, outside temperature, remote starters, and most of all wild accelerations! Also a lot of people believe that gasing up with "premium" will give them more mileage per fuelling. Here's what Petro-Canada has to say about this on its Web site:

"Gasolines with higher heating values give better fuel economy than those with lower heating values. There is generally only a small difference, about 2%, between premium and regular gasoline. This difference traditionally favours premium gasoline but it can be in either direction."

The possibility then to get more power out of a "premium" gas is very low. The higher price is not worth it.

Among the types of additives put in gasoline there is the detergent type whose purpose is to clean the combustion chamber, the injectors, and the valves in order to prevent overconsumption of fuel and reduce the amount of pollutants in exhaust smoke. This is where the oil industry has to rely on its advertising. Oil companies will try to sell you their "premium" gasoline at a premium price by boasting its cleaning qualities! But all major oil companies add detergents to all their types of gasoline, even "regular" (check their ads). So will they tell you that there is more detergent in "premium?" Maybe they will, but you should know that modern engines built with electronic fuel-injection offer remarkable performances, better combustion due to an accurate mixture ratio in the fuel injectors, and electronic ignition allowing the gas-air mixture to ignite at the exact time. If you add to this a multitude of sensors controling everything, you then get an engine with a clean combustion. Detergents are good but an overdose of them is not necessary.

 

[scooter996]

Penn product in that application, thats all. Not every application.

 

[Johnny]

This will be my last post on this issue as we could debate or argue about this until the end of time. I do not doubt that you saw these engines with sludge with Pennzoil. I have seen these engines sludge with Toyota Oil made by Mobil, with Castrol, Valvoline, and with regular Mobil, and none of the sludging was caused by the oil. Somewhere buried in the archives of this website Bob has posted a picture of one of these engines all sludged up and I believe it was either Mobil or Castrol used in it. Not the oils fault. It was caused by very poor design work by Toyota on this engine, and poor service habits by the owners because Toyota told them to. As you stated, fix the problem, no sludging.

 

[Ray H]

My Sonata's V-6 engine has a compression ratio of 10:1 - hardly what would be considered a low compression design. Yet the engine's rated for unleaded 87 octane gasoline. I tried a full load of 92 octane, but what performance gain I noticed in the seat of my pants was not worth an additional 20 cents per gallon.

The flash points I have from printouts of Chevron Supreme and Havoline, both dated June 13, 2003, are:

05W-20 - 460
05W-30 - 450
10W-30 - 450
10W-40 - 453
20W-50 - 496
mono 30 - 482
mono 40 - 509

All values are expressed in degrees Fahrenheit. It should also be remembered that these specifications from the product data sheets are the result of tests on virgin samples. A UOA could differ depending on the sample's level and type of contaminants. Ironically the flash point on my submitted sample last February of ST 5W-30 with 2,400 miles on it was 405 degrees F. Yet the expected value according to Blackstone was 365 degrees F. minimum.

[ January 18, 2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[PF52]

quote:

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Originally posted by scooter996:
Everybody in this industry knows that Toyota and Honda owners are the most loyal customer base who maintain their cars, preventive maintence, more than anyone else. A hand full of customers not changing oil arent going to ruin it for everyone.

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I'm skeptical about the preventative maintenance issue re: Toyota and Honda. I'll go out on a limb and say that Toyota and Honda sell many, many cars to people who know nothing about cars, don't want to know about cars, and/or really don't like cars. They buy the cars based on the manufacturer's reliability records, etc., because they don't want to get bogged down with maintaining an unreliable car. Its not much of a stretch to say these are the people most likely to stretch oil change intervals. Couple this with an engine that's known to sludge up, and bingo, you've got sludge.

 

[Pete]

Thank you everyone for all the kind comments. I will credit Bob himself for my engine's condition, through his assurances, via postings on Edmunds.

Regarding Gaoline:

It seems a few are trying to get me to not use premium fuel in my engine. I will agree that most engines would waste the extra octane. But: should I not use the fuel recommended by my engine's manufacturer?

I'll pull out a quote: "Retarding the spark causes a richer fuel/air mixture, which decreases fuel economy, increases emissions, causes the engine to run hotter, and reduces the longevity of both the engine itself and the catalytic converter. The money you save by pumping low-grade fuel into a car that demands higher octane is lost anyway, in decreased fuel economy and possibly gradual damage." http://www.omegamotors.com/enjoy/gasoline/gasoline_06.html

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by Johnny:
Since scooter996 put the name of Pennzoil out there, I figure I better stand up for the product I sell and the company I work for.

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I thought the negative comment about Pennsy was a bit specious, too. Conventional Pennsy's been turning in too many consistently good UOAs to believe the product is a sludge maker. I'll speculate that the owners of those sludged engines were religiously adhering to 7,500 mile (or more) OCIs on their Pennsy diet. But it's less painful to blame the oil than admit to a screw-up. I'll further speculate that Pete could run his Sienna 3,000 miles with no fear of sludging, too, and it wouldn't be out of reason to continue changing filters every other oil change either. (Personally, ST filters are cheap enough that I just change 'em every 3,000 miles along with the oil in my Hyundai V-6, though.)

 

[thrace]

From a message by scooter996:

quote:

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I am just saying that in this rare instance or case there is a problem. Not every car comes back. Once the port is enlarged there are no more issues

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I am puzzled by this statement by scooter996. Could you go further to describe this port being too small or being enlarged? Would you be able to briefly list what a Toyota 3.0 V6 owner can do to reduce chance of sludge? Does this include having a port in the engine enlarged? Change the oil would be at the top of the list. Thanks.

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Johnny:
scooter996:

I really don't care what day of the week the cars are made. I was told that when it comes to oil that you were a knowledgable person. A statement like that makes me wonder. You know as well as I do the Pennzoil did not cause the sludge, no more than Valvoline, Mobil, Castrol, Quaker State, Kendall, Chevron, and a whole host of other oils do not cause sludge.

First we know that Toyota has a problem with these engines which cooks oil. What we do not know are the service habits of the owners, and the service habits of the dealership. For all I know the customer has never been back to the dealer for service until it was to late.

I can boldly state that if a Toyota or any other car is serviced like it should be using Pennzoil or any other oil, it will not sludge. If you do work for Mobil I know they thought you better than that. And I do know Mobil as my dad worked for Mobil for 45 years, and 22 years ago I worked for Mobil. A very good reputable company that makes some very fine products.

I stand by my original statement. Have not seen a Toyota sludge on Pennzoil in 20 years. Including the 4 my wife has owned.

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Please forgive the new guy for digging this one out of the ground, but I think I can add a couple pertinent observations. I presently own a "2003.5" Camry, which has the "VVT-i" version of the 1MV-FE 3.0 V-6, pretty much the same as the engine pictured above (but 10 less hp, more restrictive exhaust in the sedan). Early 1MZ engines apparently did have a sludge problem, as Toyota has acknowledged. Newer ones have been enhanced to eliminate this. Mine is a year old and already has 32,000 miles. I've run M-1 5w-30 and 10w-30 up to 7,500 miles, and my engine is as clean as the one above. Mine had a breather tube problem (a tiny leak from the cover-tube junction), and the dealer ended up replacing the entire front cyl bank valve/cam cover, and I got to look inside during that repair. At 26k miles, there wasn't a trace of anything in there, but oil, just like the above photo. No varnish or dirt at all. My conclusion is that it certainly is safe to run normal OCI, especially in later versions of this engine, and especially with a good synthetic. I'm still kicking myself, though, since I didn't know the whole cover was coming off, I didn't have my digicam with me at the time...

[ April 09, 2004, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]

 

[TR3-2001SE]

Can any of you toyota experts tell us what years to look for this sludge problem. My wife wants one and I need to know if it is one of the problem years. I guess some information on the modification to the engine to enlarge the port would be helpful also.

 

[yannis]

i think the answer to the sludge problem is running a xW40 weight oil.
The oil shudges because high internal temperatures, typical in these engines, cause oxidation and thicker oils are more resistant to this problem.

 

[69 Riv GS]

I would think running a xw-40wt, with it's increased level of VI improvers, could contribute to producing sludge and varnish; at least with dino oil.


steve

[ April 09, 2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: 69 Riv GS ]