Toyota Resale Values Tank

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: gregmp
The point that this discussion is even going on says that the American vehicles (CARS AND TRUCKS) are on par with the Toyota cars and trucks....

That's the whole point. Take a look.

My feeling is Toyota has been in cost cutting mode for many years, while the US car companies have been in improvement mode.

So US cars have caught up on quality and passed them on design.


Finally after 70 years, they decide they better step it up. I will give you that. They are better than they used to be.

Toyota in cost cutting mode? Probably. I mean, look at their competition. They feel like they need to come down to their level so to speak so they're not too overly priced i guess. If this is the case, this is a bad move by toyota.

The US companies are in improvement mode, simply because they have been forced to thanks to japanese auto makers. So they should be thanked for providing great competition, to force the issue.

So, i somewhat agree with you.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Originally Posted By: gregmp
The point that this discussion is even going on says that the American vehicles (CARS AND TRUCKS) are on par with the Toyota cars and trucks....

That's the whole point. Take a look.

My feeling is Toyota has been in cost cutting mode for many years, while the US car companies have been in improvement mode.

So US cars have caught up on quality and passed them on design.


Finally after 70 years, they decide they better step it up. I will give you that. They are better than they used to be.

Toyota in cost cutting mode? Probably. I mean, look at their competition. They feel like they need to come down to their level so to speak so they're not too overly priced i guess. If this is the case, this is a bad move by toyota.

The US companies are in improvement mode, simply because they have been forced to thanks to japanese auto makers. So they should be thanked for providing great competition, to force the issue.

So, i somewhat agree with you.


Thank God the Germans and Americans invented all this stuff for the Japanese to copy and "make better" eh?

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: smokey1
don't forget G.M. has joint venture with TOYOTA ( VIBE , PRIZM , NOVA in past ) . Those traitors . Some of their best cars ever from G.M. dealers lots . I also think that the HYBRIDS by FORD ( Escape ) and G.M. ( Escalade ? ) are from TOYOTA . Is this not betrayal ? . ;- ) .




WRONG ON THE GM HYBRIDS! I am personally involved in the GMT900 SUV (and now pickups too) Hybrids. There is no Toyota involvement.

And I don't consider any of the joint venture GM/Toyota models as anything special. The Prizms and Vibes are so so cars. And, yes it bother me that GM does joint ventures with a competitor. As a GM employee, it sickens me.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas


Just in case you don't know, the ford placed near the LAST in all the testing (07).


Magazine testing? oh no!

Quote:
I even think the titan was better in performance.


You mean speed right? After all, that seems to be your holy grail in this thread.

Quote:
It's not hard to have better performance than a ford.


Actually, up until the 5.7L, Toyota didn't have anything that matched Ford. Prior to that, they didn't even have a truck to compete with Ford. Funny how that works.

Quote:
Finally though, in 09 they can compete somewhat.


Compete in what, your numbers "challenge" and the "magazine [censored]" tests?

Quote:
As far as i'm concerned the 09 Hemi, and the 6.2 DC from GM are the closest competitors. Too bad dodge put some car springs under the rear. Then GM only offers the 6.2 to ONE model. Nice job. trying to compete.


You've got it backwards. Toyota is trying to compete. Trying to take market share from companies that have been doing this for longer than Toyota has existed as a company. Similar to how Toyota does not compete in the 3/4-ton and up class because they don't have a truck for that class. It was not long ago they didn't have a 1/2-ton.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Gas engines have a spark to ignite a compressed air fuel mixture and it has a violent explosion to "blow" the piston to the bottom of the bore.


A spark ignition has a stable and controlled flame front that advances across the combustion chamber. There's nothing violent about it. If there's any violence, it's in a diesel that literally self ignites and is only controlled by the much lower volatility of the fuel.

When you self ignite gasoline, it damages the engine. That's the only "violence" that any gasoline combustion chamber should see. This is different than a fractured flame from that is spark ignited and can't maintain the stable flame front.

It's a "poof" or flash. Not an explosion.

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Why can't i get an answer to why the TURBO diesels COULD NOT keep up with the NA 5.7 gasser?

They were brand new 07 trucks tested, so does it take a long time for diesels to get full hp tq numbers after break in?


Maybe because it should be obvious?

You're comparing a 5,800 lb Tundra with 381 HP to a 7,900 lb F-350 PowerStroke with 350 HP. Any drag racing novice will tell you who will win that one.

Despite your fantastical story in which your righteous and magical Tundra outraces your fellow Narnian's evil and villainous 6.0 up the Misty Mountain, 1/2 ton gassers do not compare to turbodiesels when moving heavy loads. Sorry, but they just don't.

One day, when you have the experience to pull a load with a good running turbodiesel, and it finally dawns on you why people pay such high premiums for them, I hope you think back on this thread and slap yourself.





YOu're saying because the tundra is lighter, that's why the diesels cant keep up? 2000 lbs over should be nothing for a motor that has a monster turbo under the hood and 200 more ft/lbs of torque.
And if it's heavier, why couldn't the oil burners stop themselves better? Oh...it's heavier. What a joke. If it's heavier IT SHOULD BE BETTER DESIGNED TO STOP WELL. I think the closest stopping distance difference between the tundra and all the oil burners was 20 ft. Towing or empty the tundra stopped better. That 20' longer was the duramax btw. The Ford was thee worst, and was like 30 ft longer or so.

Why can't they stop better then? This is by far the most critical part of a tow vehicle, is can it stop the load?

I guess it's all in what you consider HEAVY LOADS i guess. Obviously, 7500 lbs isn't enough for a diesel, it's too light of a load to even be considered. hahaha Come on now boys. This is the AVERAGE trailer weight of most folks pulling trailers.

You boys just simply don't want to admit the fact that the tundra OUTPERFOMED the almighty big 3 oil burners in real world testing. It out towed better, stopped better, and EVEN got better mpg in the tests. No way...........not better than the almighty diesel. That can't be................well it is a fact.

I'll be getting my chance at a pulloff with my cousin's 08 dummax pretty soon. So i'll be sure to update on it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Why can't i get an answer to why the TURBO diesels COULD NOT keep up with the NA 5.7 gasser?

They were brand new 07 trucks tested, so does it take a long time for diesels to get full hp tq numbers after break in?


Maybe because it should be obvious?

You're comparing a 5,800 lb Tundra with 381 HP to a 7,900 lb F-350 PowerStroke with 350 HP. Any drag racing novice will tell you who will win that one.

Despite your fantastical story in which your righteous and magical Tundra outraces your fellow Narnian's evil and villainous 6.0 up the Misty Mountain, 1/2 ton gassers do not compare to turbodiesels when moving heavy loads. Sorry, but they just don't.

One day, when you have the experience to pull a load with a good running turbodiesel, and it finally dawns on you why people pay such high premiums for them, I hope you think back on this thread and slap yourself.





YOu're saying because the tundra is lighter, that's why the diesels cant keep up? 2000 lbs over should be nothing for a motor that has a monster turbo under the hood and 200 more ft/lbs of torque.
And if it's heavier, why couldn't the oil burners stop themselves better? Oh...it's heavier. What a joke. If it's heavier IT SHOULD BE BETTER DESIGNED TO STOP WELL. I think the closest stopping distance difference between the tundra and all the oil burners was 20 ft. Towing or empty the tundra stopped better. That 20' longer was the duramax btw. The Ford was thee worst, and was like 30 ft longer or so.

Why can't they stop better then? This is by far the most critical part of a tow vehicle, is can it stop the load?

I guess it's all in what you consider HEAVY LOADS i guess. Obviously, 7500 lbs isn't enough for a diesel, it's too light of a load to even be considered. hahaha Come on now boys. This is the AVERAGE trailer weight of most folks pulling trailers.

You boys just simply don't want to admit the fact that the tundra OUTPERFOMED the almighty big 3 oil burners in real world testing. It out towed better, stopped better, and EVEN got better mpg in the tests. No way...........not better than the almighty diesel. That can't be................well it is a fact.

I'll be getting my chance at a pulloff with my cousin's 08 dummax pretty soon. So i'll be sure to update on it.


You are completely clueless.

An F-450 will pull TWO YOUR TRUCKS AND TWO of your 7,500lb fifth wheels and not exceed its towing capacity. Toyota DOES NOT make a truck to compete on that level. PERIOD.

You are drawing ridiculous conclusions based on comparisons of information you DO NOT UNDERSTAND. You sound like a 4 year old trying to explain quantum physics.

You are dancing around the information that is sitting in front your face because you've been given the CORRECT answer 100 times in this thread, but since it does not align with the "answer" you came into this thread with, you are running in circles and sounding like an idiot.

You don't understand diesels. We get it. You don't understand physics (why it takes a vehicle that weighs 2,000lbs more 20ft more to stop for example) we get that too.

And you have a blatant love affair with your Tundra that likely includes sexual favours. We get that one as well.


Come on man, I'm not trying to sound rude (though I probably do) but the diesel thing has been CLEARLY explained to you numerous times and it just seems to go right over your head........ It gets frustrating.

 

[mstrjon32]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
I'll be getting my chance at a pulloff with my cousin's 08 dummax pretty soon. So i'll be sure to update on it.


I don't think getting your frame torn in half will be covered under the warranty...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
I'll be getting my chance at a pulloff with my cousin's 08 dummax pretty soon. So i'll be sure to update on it.


I don't think getting your frame torn in half will be covered under the warranty...


I just LOL'd!!!!

Maybe somebody with a diesel locally can hook up to his Tundra and tow it around the block a few times. I'm sure he'd come back with an argument about gas mileage though.

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: rationull
And neither of them have legs manufactured by Dodge, GM, Ford, or Toyota.


That's about to change (not leg manufacture

, but rather a diesel that's actually manufactured by Ford) :
http://www.truckblog.com/story-5431-ford_scorpion_67_diesel_underhood_spyshot
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/08/spy-shots-ford-super-dutys-new-6-7l-scorpion-diesel/
http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-scorpion.html
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/news/fo...esel-spied.html

Good riddance to Navistar.



A ford designed diesel huh? Well that oughta work out well for them. I guess we'll see.

 

[rationull]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas

A ford designed diesel huh? Well that oughta work out well for them. I guess we'll see.


Oh, I see what you did there! That was a very clever dig!

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas

Why can't i get an answer to why the TURBO diesels COULD NOT keep up with the NA 5.7 gasser?

They were brand new 07 trucks tested, so does it take a long time for diesels to get full hp tq numbers after break in?


Diesels are NOT FAST. That's the part you are COMPLETELY missing. Their forte is moving massive amounts of weight. When your gasser is screaming at 4K, the diesel is making 600+lb-ft via the help of that turbo at 1,500RPM.

The diesel has stopped making power when your gasser is just coming on. Most of them are done by 3,500RPM, some even lower. Since they lack a substantial RPM range, they are not FAST.

That is why this comparison is so goofy.


Diesels not fast? I have watched the diesel truck drags, and they are quite fast. But lots and lots of mods, and lots of money spent on them.

But the diesel is the tow vehicle of choice isn't it? Why didn't it outperform? Is it because it was a new truck that is not broke in? Or just that diesels are not fast?

I know it's goofy. But it's been a fun ride. Almost time for bed though.

Later,


I explained it to you already but you aren't getting it.

HP is torque at RPM.

The higher in the RPM range an engine makes peak torque, the more HP it makes. A diesel makes torque LOW, and the curve is basically flat. That means it doesn't make a lot of HP. They also have very heavy rotating assemblies and do not ACCELERATE quickly. But they have tremendous twisting power (torque). This allows them to move incredible amounts of weight. The example cited by rationull is a good one.

You have to look beyond the numbers. You simply do not understand diesel trucks, so this argument isn't going anywhere.


You are simply going around my question, and not answering it.

I realize they have more low end torque, and make their power at low rpm's. All at the sake of performance, huh? Without mods i might ad. I know that a diesel CAN have tremendous amounts of power with added mods. That's a given. But stock for stock, they are lackluster at best talking performance that is.

Maybe because i don't see it cost effective to even look at a diesel truck. I see no sense in it. The only need for a diesel is for long haul towing day in day out. All other needs it is a waste of money. Not to mention, they feel like a tank just driving around.

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: rationull
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

That's about to change (not leg manufacture

, but rather a diesel that's actually manufactured by Ford)



Hah, good point. Actually I wasn't even thinking about the fact that the big three were using diesels not developed in-house, so the comment wasn't intended to be applicable to anything but thanks for making it appear clever and insightful

Good riddance indeed. I've got two co-workers that were bitten by problems with late model PowerStroke engines.


Even guys that have the cummins are having a hard time keeping them running without adding a new exhaust system & stuff. Which i might ad, voids the warranty. Smart.
The cummins is still the only true medium duty diesel engine in a pickup.

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Overkill....

Just saw an ad in truck trend's new magazine i just got.

Looks like the f-150 will be getting another engine choice, along with the 2011 mustang. I assume the f150 is for 2011 as well.

It's the coyote 5.0L, with power estimated at 400/400 with fuel economy close to the 5.4L of today.

Pretty imressive for a 5.0. It would be interesting to see the hp/tq curve on it though.


Yes, the stigma associated with the 5.0L I think is only bested by the names "HEMI" and "BOSS".


I thought the boss was a 6.2 or something?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas

You are simply going around my question, and not answering it.


No, I am not. Not to be rude, but you simply are not understanding the explanation. At all. You don't seem to understand how an engine works.

Quote:
I realize they have more low end torque, and make their power at low rpm's. All at the sake of performance, huh? Without mods i might ad. I know that a diesel CAN have tremendous amounts of power with added mods. That's a given. But stock for stock, they are lackluster at best talking performance that is.


You just proved you learned nothing from what we've posted.

Torque is a measure of twisting force. It does not imply movement. You can apply torque to an object and not do any work.

Horsepower is work. This work is performed at a rate, the rate in this case is RPM.

An internal combustion engine performs work by applying torque. This is what a dyno measures. The quicker the RATE (RPM) that the work is performed, the smaller the individual unit of work (torque) needs to be. For example, an engine producing 300lb-ft of torque at 4,000RPM will make MORE HP than an engine producing 400lb-ft of torque at 2,000RPM. The higher the RATE at which torque is applied, the less of it is needed to perform a given quantity of work.

HP is what accelerates you. It is speed. Two cars of the same weight with identical HP figures, even with massive torque discrepancies, if both geared optimally will yield almost identical 1/4 mile times.

Now, think about the above for a minute. Now think about a diesel:

1. Does a diesel have a lightweight rotating assembly? No.
2. Does a diesel perform well at higher RPM? No.
3. Does a diesel accelerate in the same manner as a gasoline engine? No.

So, you have an engine that is RPM-limited with a HEAVY rotating assembly. These two facts alone mean it WILL NOT ACCELERATE its rotating assembly as fast as a gasoline engine.

BUT

The Diesel engine WILL APPLY several TIMES the torque (twisting force) of the gasoline engine over its operating range. But since it will not do it at the same RATE (RPM) as the gasoline engine, it will not be as FAST.

That is why your "performance" comparison is ridiculous. It DOES NOT apply to diesels, and obviously the magazine that did the comparison was clueless as well.


Quote:
Maybe because i don't see it cost effective to even look at a diesel truck. I see no sense in it. The only need for a diesel is for long haul towing day in day out. All other needs it is a waste of money. Not to mention, they feel like a tank just driving around.


You are just showing your bias, which, according to the above, is based on a complete lack of understanding. You don't even seem to be TRYING to understand it. You have a preconceived notion of "what is what" here, and don't appear to making any attempt at considering what you THINK may be WRONG.

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas


Just in case you don't know, the ford placed near the LAST in all the testing (07).


Magazine testing? oh no!

Quote:
I even think the titan was better in performance.


You mean speed right? After all, that seems to be your holy grail in this thread.

Quote:
It's not hard to have better performance than a ford.


Actually, up until the 5.7L, Toyota didn't have anything that matched Ford. Prior to that, they didn't even have a truck to compete with Ford. Funny how that works.

Quote:
Finally though, in 09 they can compete somewhat.


Compete in what, your numbers "challenge" and the "magazine [censored]" tests?

Quote:
As far as i'm concerned the 09 Hemi, and the 6.2 DC from GM are the closest competitors. Too bad dodge put some car springs under the rear. Then GM only offers the 6.2 to ONE model. Nice job. trying to compete.


You've got it backwards. Toyota is trying to compete. Trying to take market share from companies that have been doing this for longer than Toyota has existed as a company. Similar to how Toyota does not compete in the 3/4-ton and up class because they don't have a truck for that class. It was not long ago they didn't have a 1/2-ton.


Yeah, consumer reports edition 07. I got my flame suit on now.

Why don't you define performance for me then? Stopping, 0-60, handling, 1/4 mile times, towing and stopping 60-0.

What else is there?

The 4.7 was SOMEWHAT close to your 5.4 performance wise, i owned one and for their small displacement and horrible hp/tq curve, they faired very well against the competition back then.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas


Yeah, consumer reports edition 07. I got my flame suit on now.


They obviously know SFA about diesels.

Quote:
Why don't you define performance for me then? Stopping, 0-60, handling, 1/4 mile times, towing and stopping 60-0.


Other than the towing, the others are about par for the course if we were comparing sports cars.

For Trucks on the other hand, at least for me it is:

1. How much weight will it realistically pull. What is its rated towing capacity? By realistic I mean by being able to properly merge into traffic and accelerate at a reasonable rate. I don't care if one truck is a few 10ths of a second faster or slower, this isn't a drag-race.

2. How well will it stop the load? What kind of braking assist is offered on the truck for stopping the trailer? Is it adjustable?

3. What kind of fuel mileage does it get loaded and unloaded?

4. How durable is the powertrain? How much testing has gone into it? What kind of reliability has it been PROVEN to have under HEAVY DUTY usage?

5. How much abuse will it take. How strong is the box, how strong is the frame? What does it take to BREAK IT?


Quote:
The 4.7 was SOMEWHAT close to your 5.4 performance wise, i owned one and for their small displacement and horrible hp/tq curve, they faired very well against the competition back then.



My uncle owns one, I find it somewhat gutless. But the truck is nice otherwise, and decent on fuel, that's the gen that reminds me a LOT of the F-150......

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Why can't i get an answer to why the TURBO diesels COULD NOT keep up with the NA 5.7 gasser?

They were brand new 07 trucks tested, so does it take a long time for diesels to get full hp tq numbers after break in?


Maybe because it should be obvious?

You're comparing a 5,800 lb Tundra with 381 HP to a 7,900 lb F-350 PowerStroke with 350 HP. Any drag racing novice will tell you who will win that one.

Despite your fantastical story in which your righteous and magical Tundra outraces your fellow Narnian's evil and villainous 6.0 up the Misty Mountain, 1/2 ton gassers do not compare to turbodiesels when moving heavy loads. Sorry, but they just don't.

One day, when you have the experience to pull a load with a good running turbodiesel, and it finally dawns on you why people pay such high premiums for them, I hope you think back on this thread and slap yourself.





YOu're saying because the tundra is lighter, that's why the diesels cant keep up? 2000 lbs over should be nothing for a motor that has a monster turbo under the hood and 200 more ft/lbs of torque.
And if it's heavier, why couldn't the oil burners stop themselves better? Oh...it's heavier. What a joke. If it's heavier IT SHOULD BE BETTER DESIGNED TO STOP WELL. I think the closest stopping distance difference between the tundra and all the oil burners was 20 ft. Towing or empty the tundra stopped better. That 20' longer was the duramax btw. The Ford was thee worst, and was like 30 ft longer or so.

Why can't they stop better then? This is by far the most critical part of a tow vehicle, is can it stop the load?

I guess it's all in what you consider HEAVY LOADS i guess. Obviously, 7500 lbs isn't enough for a diesel, it's too light of a load to even be considered. hahaha Come on now boys. This is the AVERAGE trailer weight of most folks pulling trailers.

You boys just simply don't want to admit the fact that the tundra OUTPERFOMED the almighty big 3 oil burners in real world testing. It out towed better, stopped better, and EVEN got better mpg in the tests. No way...........not better than the almighty diesel. That can't be................well it is a fact.

I'll be getting my chance at a pulloff with my cousin's 08 dummax pretty soon. So i'll be sure to update on it.


You are completely clueless.

An F-450 will pull TWO YOUR TRUCKS AND TWO of your 7,500lb fifth wheels and not exceed its towing capacity. Toyota DOES NOT make a truck to compete on that level. PERIOD.

You are drawing ridiculous conclusions based on comparisons of information you DO NOT UNDERSTAND. You sound like a 4 year old trying to explain quantum physics.

You are dancing around the information that is sitting in front your face because you've been given the CORRECT answer 100 times in this thread, but since it does not align with the "answer" you came into this thread with, you are running in circles and sounding like an idiot.

You don't understand diesels. We get it. You don't understand physics (why it takes a vehicle that weighs 2,000lbs more 20ft more to stop for example) we get that too.

And you have a blatant love affair with your Tundra that likely includes sexual favours. We get that one as well.


Come on man, I'm not trying to sound rude (though I probably do) but the diesel thing has been CLEARLY explained to you numerous times and it just seems to go right over your head........ It gets frustrating.


The f450 is not EVEN CLOSE to the same class as the 1/2-3/4 ton. Who cares what the f450 can do?
We're talking pickup trucks here.

What i have gathered from your twisted up responses is the diesel is superior in low end grunt and pulling power. But lacks in the performance dept? It's heavier, blah blah, blah.
It's a [censored] pickup truck for [censored] sakes. It's drivin as a grocery getter for some, trips to homedepot, and then tows on occasion. What a waste of a 4 ton oil burner.

Who cares about physics? If the truck is NOT PROPERLY designed for it's weight and capabilities to stop for a child in the road with 30' to do it in. Why have it?
If it rides like a tank, why have it?
If it handles like a tank, why have it?
If it's hard on front end parts, why have it?
If a teeny tiny gasser can outperform it, why have it?
If it costs more to purchase and to operate, why have it?

Buy a diesel pickup for towing duty only? Whatever.

Wow ovekill, i'd say you're going nuts here. Calm down now; it'll be alright.

Sexuall favors? Yeah, the 3" tailpipe is just about the right size. Give me a break. Now who's sounding like a 4 yr old?

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
I'll be getting my chance at a pulloff with my cousin's 08 dummax pretty soon. So i'll be sure to update on it.


I don't think getting your frame torn in half will be covered under the warranty...


Do you need glasses?

T-O-W-I-N-G TRAILERS.

Who would be stupid enough to hook up to each other and tug away?

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
I'll be getting my chance at a pulloff with my cousin's 08 dummax pretty soon. So i'll be sure to update on it.


I don't think getting your frame torn in half will be covered under the warranty...


I just LOL'd!!!!

Maybe somebody with a diesel locally can hook up to his Tundra and tow it around the block a few times. I'm sure he'd come back with an argument about gas mileage though.


Who's the 4 year old now?