Toyota Resale Values Tank

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas

Why can't i get an answer to why the TURBO diesels COULD NOT keep up with the NA 5.7 gasser?

They were brand new 07 trucks tested, so does it take a long time for diesels to get full hp tq numbers after break in?


Diesels are NOT FAST. That's the part you are COMPLETELY missing. Their forte is moving massive amounts of weight. When your gasser is screaming at 4K, the diesel is making 600+lb-ft via the help of that turbo at 1,500RPM.

The diesel has stopped making power when your gasser is just coming on. Most of them are done by 3,500RPM, some even lower. Since they lack a substantial RPM range, they are not FAST.

That is why this comparison is so goofy.


Diesels not fast? I have watched the diesel truck drags, and they are quite fast. But lots and lots of mods, and lots of money spent on them.

But the diesel is the tow vehicle of choice isn't it? Why didn't it outperform? Is it because it was a new truck that is not broke in? Or just that diesels are not fast?

I know it's goofy. But it's been a fun ride. Almost time for bed though.

Later,

 

[Big_3_Only]

Some of you guys need to move to japan. You'll be surrounded by plenty of people that hate the BIG THREE and you can drive your ugly toyotas around and talk about how incompetent American engineers are for producing such ancient technology. You know, you guys are right, GM, Ford, and Dodge need to take a notes from the toyota 3 year old tundra playbook and add it to the 100 years of American progess and innovation in making full size pickups, which has led to the subpar offerings from these American companies.

You toyota lovers are right. Supporting the BIG THREE isn't important. We need them to go out of buisness so that all of us can drive toyotas!! Yipee!!

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas


I really don't care how fast my truck is empty; all that does not excite me. Well, maybe once in a great while to blow away that hemi or titan. But what i use my truck for 90% of the time is towing trailers


Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
If you haven't noticed already, i'm more performance minded when towing. When i come to a hill no matter how steep it is, i expect the truck to be able to do the speed limit or more. And i'm telling you, my tundra has not let me down yet. Even our 9k lb horsetrailer hasn't set me back on hills.


Man you are talking yourself in circls in this thread. Which is it? Are you a performance oriented guy or are you a work/towing oriented guy? They are different things entirely and the trucks are set up/designed differently for each use. Man, You are a freakin riot.

You are twisting and dodging and grasping at evey thing you can to try and pump up the Toyota and tear down the other brands even if you contradict yourself 5 pages later.

You should really go back and copy each of your posts and then paste them onto a word document and read them in sequence. You should get a good chuckle. You sound like a politician running for office as you travel the state/country. You say one thing here then another over here to fit your current stance on something. Did you by any chance ever work for the Clinton administration? I can see you now = "define frame rot?"

BTW - if you are ever in my neck of the woods stop on bye. We can grab a bite to eat, talk oil, and then my poor pathetic HEMI Ram and your Tundra can have a quick conversation. Blow away a HEMI = HA! I don't even need a new 09 Ram with the more powerful engine and I don't need any modifications( assuming you are stock and are 4WD as well ). I will stay right with you with my 08 QC 5.7L HEMI Ram that is less powerful than your Tundra motor. If you can't drive any better than you can argue this topic I might even beat you.

I can't out tow you in my 1500 and I admit it so don't go there and try to change the subject. You said you blow HEMI's away! Well, I have one and I admit I am performance oriented so I am extending the challenge for you to back your words up! You seem to want to say the Tundra is the end all be all and is the king of both work and play with your blowing away of HEMI's, claiming that the new Tundra 5.7L is a match for SRT-10 Rams and Lightnings, saying the Tundra outpulls everythingf rom gassers to diesels, etc.... Let's see it. I realize if you are too far away this can't happen but if not let's do it( just let me break 5K 1st please - only at 4K now ).

You brought up racing so let's see you back it up. Come "blow me away" in my whimpy Big 3 HEMI Ram. And "blow away" means you absolutely bury someone and it is not close. Winning is NOT blowing away. After you race me I want to see you match up to the 09 HEMI Ram and "blow it away" too. Couple guys around here with SRT-1o Rams and Lightnings I am sure would like a word with you as well.

Dude, it is GREAT you like your Tundra. I am sure they are good trucks. However, the Big 3 make GREAT trucks as well. If you are going to say things then at least have them accurate. There are so many comments in this thread by you that are wrong it would take another 20 pages to correct them.

Drive that UGLY ARSE truck and enjoy it but chill out.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Big_3_Only


You toyota lovers are right. Supporting the BIG THREE isn't important. We need them to go out of buisness so that all of us can drive toyotas!! Yipee!!


I would rather walk thanks. The one Toyota I have owned was the biggest turd I have ever driven. 2005 Tacoma with more problems in the 7 months I owned it than all my Dodge and GM trucks combined( 10 Total = 7 Dodge and 3 GM ).

 

[Amkeer]

I love my trucks! Keep buying those Fords I need my stock to go up!

 

[mstrjon32]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Man you are talking yourself in circls in this thread. Which is it? Are you a performance oriented guy or are you a work/towing oriented guy? They are different things entirely and the trucks are set up/designed differently for each use. Man, You are a freakin riot.

You are twisting and dodging and grasping at evey thing you can to try and pump up the Toyota and tear down the other brands even if you contradict yourself 5 pages later.


I just stopped when I realized this thread had become about 3Toyotas justifying his purchase and small ego. Everything he says is a contradiction. If this went on long enough I wouldn't be surprised to see a post from him flat out saying his Toyota is inferior to the Ford, and then a few posts later him explaining why that means the Toyota is better. LOL.

It is pretty [censored] ugly, too.

 

[gregmp]

The point that this discussion is even going on says that the American vehicles (CARS AND TRUCKS) are on par with the Toyota cars and trucks....

That's the whole point. Take a look.

My feeling is Toyota has been in cost cutting mode for many years, while the US car companies have been in improvement mode.

So US cars have caught up on quality and passed them on design.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Why can't i get an answer to why the TURBO diesels COULD NOT keep up with the NA 5.7 gasser?

They were brand new 07 trucks tested, so does it take a long time for diesels to get full hp tq numbers after break in?


Maybe because it should be obvious?

You're comparing a 5,800 lb Tundra with 381 HP to a 7,900 lb F-350 PowerStroke with 350 HP. Any drag racing novice will tell you who will win that one.

Despite your fantastical story in which your righteous and magical Tundra outraces your fellow Narnian's evil and villainous 6.0 up the Misty Mountain, 1/2 ton gassers do not compare to turbodiesels when moving heavy loads. Sorry, but they just don't.

One day, when you have the experience to pull a load with a good running turbodiesel, and it finally dawns on you why people pay such high premiums for them, I hope you think back on this thread and slap yourself.

 

[rationull]

3Toyotas:

Imagine two people. Person A has very strong legs but cannot move them very fast. Person B's legs are not nearly as strong, but he can move them very quickly.

Two questions:

1) Which person would you choose to run a sprint?
2) Which person would you choose to push a 500 lb wheelbarrow up a hill?


That's roughly the difference between a gas engine and a diesel.


(And in case it's not obvious, the diesel is the guy with strong legs. And neither of them have legs manufactured by Dodge, GM, Ford, or Toyota).

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: rationull
And neither of them have legs manufactured by Dodge, GM, Ford, or Toyota.


That's about to change (not leg manufacture

, but rather a diesel that's actually manufactured by Ford) :
http://www.truckblog.com/story-5431-ford_scorpion_67_diesel_underhood_spyshot
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/08/spy-shots-ford-super-dutys-new-6-7l-scorpion-diesel/
http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-scorpion.html
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/news/fo...esel-spied.html

Good riddance to Navistar.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas

Why can't i get an answer to why the TURBO diesels COULD NOT keep up with the NA 5.7 gasser?

They were brand new 07 trucks tested, so does it take a long time for diesels to get full hp tq numbers after break in?


Diesels are NOT FAST. That's the part you are COMPLETELY missing. Their forte is moving massive amounts of weight. When your gasser is screaming at 4K, the diesel is making 600+lb-ft via the help of that turbo at 1,500RPM.

The diesel has stopped making power when your gasser is just coming on. Most of them are done by 3,500RPM, some even lower. Since they lack a substantial RPM range, they are not FAST.

That is why this comparison is so goofy.


Diesels not fast? I have watched the diesel truck drags, and they are quite fast. But lots and lots of mods, and lots of money spent on them.

But the diesel is the tow vehicle of choice isn't it? Why didn't it outperform? Is it because it was a new truck that is not broke in? Or just that diesels are not fast?

I know it's goofy. But it's been a fun ride. Almost time for bed though.

Later,


I explained it to you already but you aren't getting it.

HP is torque at RPM.

The higher in the RPM range an engine makes peak torque, the more HP it makes. A diesel makes torque LOW, and the curve is basically flat. That means it doesn't make a lot of HP. They also have very heavy rotating assemblies and do not ACCELERATE quickly. But they have tremendous twisting power (torque). This allows them to move incredible amounts of weight. The example cited by rationull is a good one.

You have to look beyond the numbers. You simply do not understand diesel trucks, so this argument isn't going anywhere.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
You have to look beyond the numbers.


You just have to look at the right numbers.

For 3Toyodas:
6.4 PowerStroke - 650 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
6.6 Duramax - 660 lb-ft @ 1,600 rpm
6.7 Cummins - 650 lb-ft @ 1,500 rpm
5.7 Toyota - 401 lb-ft @ 3,600 rpm
5.4 Ford - 390 lb-ft @ 3,750 rpm

It's pretty clear what field the Toyota is playing on, and it isn't the turbodiesel's.

 

[rationull]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

That's about to change (not leg manufacture

, but rather a diesel that's actually manufactured by Ford)



Hah, good point. Actually I wasn't even thinking about the fact that the big three were using diesels not developed in-house, so the comment wasn't intended to be applicable to anything but thanks for making it appear clever and insightful

Good riddance indeed. I've got two co-workers that were bitten by problems with late model PowerStroke engines.

 

[BadHabit]

Gas engines have a spark to ignite a compressed air fuel mixture and it has a violent explosion to "blow" the piston to the bottom of the bore.

Diesel engines rely on compression of the air fuel mixture to self ignite and the fuel burns at a much slower rate than gas. The diesel burns during the entire "power" stroke. This is why you get so much torque because its a constant push on the piston.

Horsepower is a calculation of torque. Low speed engines (diesel)produce relativly low hp numbers because a diesel by nature cannot turn high rpm efficiently.

 

[rationull]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT

You just have to look at the right numbers.


It's not only applicable to trucks anyway, although they're more common here than diesel cars by a long shot. I had my first interactive exposure to diesel engines when driving a friend's Jetta TDI. The car has a 1.9 liter turbo diesel with around 100 hp and around 180 ft*lbs or torque, peaking at 1800 RPM or thereabouts.

If you pay attention to the butt dyno that car feels way faster than my 1.8 Civic (140 hp, 128 ft*lbs at 4300 RPM) because you can put your foot down at nearly any reasonable speed and feel the thrust. It can pull itself up the local 7% grade in top gear at 70 mph and accelerate. It feels like a much bigger, more powerful engine.

But it's actually a couple of seconds slower to 60 than the Civic. It redlines at around 4500 RPM IIRC, while the Civic pulls to 6800. There's not enough space in the TDI's gearing to accelerate for any amount of time, and if there were it wouldn't feel nearly as responsive.

My point is if you can get some time behind the wheel of a diesel vehicle and a gas vehicle that are similar in class and purpose, you can easily understand the different characteristics of the powertrains.

(This has probably already been covered but I can't remember). Think about the physics of it. Torque is roughly rotational force, and power is roughly about energy output. You can be capable of exerting tremendous force very slowly, and that doesn't equal lots of power output. You need force (torque) to get a vehicle up to speed, but power output is what keeps a vehicle moving. You need more torque for heavier loads, because you need to add more momentum to the system than you would with a smaller load. As Overkill's been saying, power output most commonly comes from higher rates of rotational motion in the engine (higher RPM) combined with whatever rotational force the engine is capable of putting out (torque).


This is why you can have huge waterwheels that are putting out mind-blowing torque, spinning very slowly, and putting out very little power. If you were trying to power a vehicle with the output of a drivetrain with that characteristic, your gearing would have to be insanely tall to make the power output usable.

 

[rationull]

Originally Posted By: BadHabit

Diesel engines rely on compression of the air fuel mixture to self ignite and the fuel burns at a much slower rate than gas. The diesel burns during the entire "power" stroke. This is why you get so much torque because its a constant push on the piston.


Interesting, I hadn't thought about it like that before.

Of course, the turbo helps a lot too Even small gasoline turbo engines tend to put out a lot of torque (for their size) and low RPM (for gas engines).

 

[3Toyotas]

Overkill....

Just saw an ad in truck trend's new magazine i just got.

Looks like the f-150 will be getting another engine choice, along with the 2011 mustang. I assume the f150 is for 2011 as well.

It's the coyote 5.0L, with power estimated at 400/400 with fuel economy close to the 5.4L of today.

Pretty imressive for a 5.0. It would be interesting to see the hp/tq curve on it though.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Overkill....

Just saw an ad in truck trend's new magazine i just got.

Looks like the f-150 will be getting another engine choice, along with the 2011 mustang. I assume the f150 is for 2011 as well.

It's the coyote 5.0L, with power estimated at 400/400 with fuel economy close to the 5.4L of today.

Pretty imressive for a 5.0. It would be interesting to see the hp/tq curve on it though.


Yes, the stigma associated with the 5.0L I think is only bested by the names "HEMI" and "BOSS".

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas


I really don't care how fast my truck is empty; all that does not excite me. Well, maybe once in a great while to blow away that hemi or titan. But what i use my truck for 90% of the time is towing trailers


Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
If you haven't noticed already, i'm more performance minded when towing. When i come to a hill no matter how steep it is, i expect the truck to be able to do the speed limit or more. And i'm telling you, my tundra has not let me down yet. Even our 9k lb horsetrailer hasn't set me back on hills.


Man you are talking yourself in circls in this thread. Which is it? Are you a performance oriented guy or are you a work/towing oriented guy? They are different things entirely and the trucks are set up/designed differently for each use. Man, You are a freakin riot.

You are twisting and dodging and grasping at evey thing you can to try and pump up the Toyota and tear down the other brands even if you contradict yourself 5 pages later.

You should really go back and copy each of your posts and then paste them onto a word document and read them in sequence. You should get a good chuckle. You sound like a politician running for office as you travel the state/country. You say one thing here then another over here to fit your current stance on something. Did you by any chance ever work for the Clinton administration? I can see you now = "define frame rot?"

BTW - if you are ever in my neck of the woods stop on bye. We can grab a bite to eat, talk oil, and then my poor pathetic HEMI Ram and your Tundra can have a quick conversation. Blow away a HEMI = HA! I don't even need a new 09 Ram with the more powerful engine and I don't need any modifications( assuming you are stock and are 4WD as well ). I will stay right with you with my 08 QC 5.7L HEMI Ram that is less powerful than your Tundra motor. If you can't drive any better than you can argue this topic I might even beat you.

I can't out tow you in my 1500 and I admit it so don't go there and try to change the subject. You said you blow HEMI's away! Well, I have one and I admit I am performance oriented so I am extending the challenge for you to back your words up! You seem to want to say the Tundra is the end all be all and is the king of both work and play with your blowing away of HEMI's, claiming that the new Tundra 5.7L is a match for SRT-10 Rams and Lightnings, saying the Tundra outpulls everythingf rom gassers to diesels, etc.... Let's see it. I realize if you are too far away this can't happen but if not let's do it( just let me break 5K 1st please - only at 4K now ).

You brought up racing so let's see you back it up. Come "blow me away" in my whimpy Big 3 HEMI Ram. And "blow away" means you absolutely bury someone and it is not close. Winning is NOT blowing away. After you race me I want to see you match up to the 09 HEMI Ram and "blow it away" too. Couple guys around here with SRT-1o Rams and Lightnings I am sure would like a word with you as well.

Dude, it is GREAT you like your Tundra. I am sure they are good trucks. However, the Big 3 make GREAT trucks as well. If you are going to say things then at least have them accurate. There are so many comments in this thread by you that are wrong it would take another 20 pages to correct them.

Drive that UGLY ARSE truck and enjoy it but chill out.

Like they say; ' opinions are like azzholes, everybody has them and they all stink.'

I can plainly see, you are reading into this thread all wrong my friend. I use my truck for towing 95% of the time; which is what the truck was designed for. And designed for it very well i might ad. So you and your hemoridge go play with the other boys, and have fun with your grocery getter. Okay.

Since you know it all about trucks, then knock yourself out my friend. Speel out all the facts for us then. come on, i'm waiting.

Oh, btw I may have misinterpruted the srt10/lightning post i made. My bad. I beleive it was a thread i read vs. a SC tundra.
Sorry about that.

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Man you are talking yourself in circls in this thread. Which is it? Are you a performance oriented guy or are you a work/towing oriented guy? They are different things entirely and the trucks are set up/designed differently for each use. Man, You are a freakin riot.

You are twisting and dodging and grasping at evey thing you can to try and pump up the Toyota and tear down the other brands even if you contradict yourself 5 pages later.


I just stopped when I realized this thread had become about 3Toyotas justifying his purchase and small ego. Everything he says is a contradiction. If this went on long enough I wouldn't be surprised to see a post from him flat out saying his Toyota is inferior to the Ford, and then a few posts later him explaining why that means the Toyota is better. LOL.

It is pretty [censored] ugly, too.


Ugly? That was a nice stab. Good one!!

Just in case you don't know, the ford placed near the LAST in all the testing (07). I even think the titan was better in performance. It's not hard to have better performance than a ford. Finally though, in 09 they can compete somewhat. As far as i'm concerned the 09 Hemi, and the 6.2 DC from GM are the closest competitors. Too bad dodge put some car springs under the rear. Then GM only offers the 6.2 to ONE model. Nice job. trying to compete.