Toyota quality skid? Experts say NO
- Thread starter buster
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I don't put much weight in recall counts and "initial quality" ratings (except Car and Driver's!). It will be a few years before we really know the quality level of the current crop.
The bigger a company gets, the harder it is to churn out quality products. It's just a fact of life.
What? How can that explain the quality of the new Corolla (starting from 98) being so much worse than my 95? And how can they explain all these plastic qualities going down since the 97 generation of my MIL?
This is not just Toyota, the newer Honda is not as good as the ones in the late 90s also. The way it goes, I might as well buy the big 2.5 and save a few bucks.
This is not just Toyota, the newer Honda is not as good as the ones in the late 90s also. The way it goes, I might as well buy the big 2.5 and save a few bucks.
From what I see yes and no.
Drivetrains have gotten better by having more power, putting out less emissions and requiring less maintenance. A lot of components that were made of regular steel are now made of stainless or aluminum, meaning less things that rust. Body structures continue to be stiffened, meaning less squeaks and rattles. Mechanical parts failure continues to decrease. The fit and finish of interior parts, while mostly made of plastic now, continues to improve.
The area of a lot of problems in newer cars is electronics. People keep demanding more and more things like Navigation Systems, Rear Seat DVD players, Built in Bluetooth, Six Disc Changers, Power Everything, Dual Climate Control, etc, etc. This is an area that needs improvement. It seems that keeping certain electronic components in working order in a harsh environment like a car is a challenge sometimes. I replace radios, bluetooth units, navi units, etc on a daily basis. Mechanical repair is always going to be there, but not as much as it used to be.
So the way I see it is that some things have gotten worse but more have gotten better.
I have a 2006 Toy p/u nice but but ugly refined more than my 92 toy p/u the quality is almost G.M like im my opinion . The quality is way way down. There must be a man without honor as ceo.
Since 1987 We've had 4 Honda's and 6 Toyota/s.
"...most-admired, most-copied, most-studied and most- envied automaker of the past 20 years "
My experience had been that Honda is superior.
"...most-admired, most-copied, most-studied and most- envied automaker of the past 20 years "
My experience had been that Honda is superior.
Bretheren... ponder the term "expert."
Think hard. Harder. Now, speed your thinking a wee bit.
Faster....Harder....Faster....Harder....
Okay. At the root of being an "expert,"
Ain't it just someome who has read a lot and remembered a bunch of stuff?
Well, personal hands-on experince can count too, I suppose.
Heh. "Hands-on."
Faster!!! Harder!!!!
/slinks away
//"Oh what a feeling"
///"Like a rock"
Think hard. Harder. Now, speed your thinking a wee bit.
Faster....Harder....Faster....Harder....
Okay. At the root of being an "expert,"
Ain't it just someome who has read a lot and remembered a bunch of stuff?
Well, personal hands-on experince can count too, I suppose.
Heh. "Hands-on."
Faster!!! Harder!!!!
/slinks away
//"Oh what a feeling"
///"Like a rock"
"How can you skid when it wasnt that great to begin with. Toyota has word of mouth superiority and that is about it. They are no better than most other quality brands out there."
I will agree with you that most of Toyota's sales are made by uninformed consumers who would rather not even think about their car purchase. They just sign and drive for a Toyota or Honda without doing any research into alternatives that may deliver the same quality for a better value, such as a Chevy or a Hyundai. Believe me, I know such people. They have no idea that American car companies have improved their quality or that Toyota and Honda have had some of the problems in recent times that have persistently plagued American car companies in the past, such as transmission problems. So yes, I will agree that many of Toyota's and Honda's buyers today are basically uniformed buyers who buy purely because of past reputation.
As for Big 3 quality always being on par with Toyota and Honda, I would have to disagree on that. In the 70s, 80s, and to some extent the 90s the quality of American cars seemed to be pretty low, allowing the Japanese to take over. This may have been because of the changing marketplace, increased government regulation, greedy shareholders, etc. Whatever the case, it happened and now the companies are still paying the price for it. To deny that the Japanese ever held a quality edge is like denying that a historical event occurred. I'm personally glad that they have fixed their quality issues for the most part, though I'm not in the market for a new car and I would not buy a used 90s Big 3 vehicle (feel free to convince me otherwise, but I'm pretty happy with my trouble-free 91 Corolla). However, I do find it odd that the Big 3 do not attempt to outdo each other when it comes to quality. I cite for example diesel trucks, which do seem to have more quality issues than their gasoline counterparts, to which the Big 3 have foreign competition. Anyway, sorry about my rant. This is just my opinion and I'm not bashing any car company. In fact, I despise it when people on this board seem to root against or for car companies like they own stock in them or are employed by them. They seem to root for them like a favorite sports team or NASCAR driver. Anyway, just my .02.
P.S., my dad was showing me a Life magazine from 1979 with all of the vintage car ads in it. I gotta wonder about the American consumer back then. They were sure buying some ugly, unreliable stuff, from all car companies. The only vehicle that appealed to me was the Jeep Cherokee (not the XJ, which I like also, but the rounded edge one). The rest of the stuff was ridiculous. And the gas mileage boasts were hilarious as well. 38 mpg out of a big Ford Fairmont with a carbuerated straight six?
I will agree with you that most of Toyota's sales are made by uninformed consumers who would rather not even think about their car purchase. They just sign and drive for a Toyota or Honda without doing any research into alternatives that may deliver the same quality for a better value, such as a Chevy or a Hyundai. Believe me, I know such people. They have no idea that American car companies have improved their quality or that Toyota and Honda have had some of the problems in recent times that have persistently plagued American car companies in the past, such as transmission problems. So yes, I will agree that many of Toyota's and Honda's buyers today are basically uniformed buyers who buy purely because of past reputation.
As for Big 3 quality always being on par with Toyota and Honda, I would have to disagree on that. In the 70s, 80s, and to some extent the 90s the quality of American cars seemed to be pretty low, allowing the Japanese to take over. This may have been because of the changing marketplace, increased government regulation, greedy shareholders, etc. Whatever the case, it happened and now the companies are still paying the price for it. To deny that the Japanese ever held a quality edge is like denying that a historical event occurred. I'm personally glad that they have fixed their quality issues for the most part, though I'm not in the market for a new car and I would not buy a used 90s Big 3 vehicle (feel free to convince me otherwise, but I'm pretty happy with my trouble-free 91 Corolla). However, I do find it odd that the Big 3 do not attempt to outdo each other when it comes to quality. I cite for example diesel trucks, which do seem to have more quality issues than their gasoline counterparts, to which the Big 3 have foreign competition. Anyway, sorry about my rant. This is just my opinion and I'm not bashing any car company. In fact, I despise it when people on this board seem to root against or for car companies like they own stock in them or are employed by them. They seem to root for them like a favorite sports team or NASCAR driver. Anyway, just my .02.
P.S., my dad was showing me a Life magazine from 1979 with all of the vintage car ads in it. I gotta wonder about the American consumer back then. They were sure buying some ugly, unreliable stuff, from all car companies. The only vehicle that appealed to me was the Jeep Cherokee (not the XJ, which I like also, but the rounded edge one). The rest of the stuff was ridiculous. And the gas mileage boasts were hilarious as well. 38 mpg out of a big Ford Fairmont with a carbuerated straight six?
CR's ratings will be slow to show a change, because they're based on the last three model years and their results tend to be based on year-old data on top of that. So if Toyota's quality went downhill with the 2007 models, it would only be fully apparent three to four years from now.
I conduct my own vehicle reliability research at
TrueDelta, partly because I believe more recent and more frequently updated information could be useful.
I am not seeing notable problem rates in Toyotas yet. Latest results, with new ones in a couple of weeks:
TrueDelta Vehicle Reliability Survey results
One potential problem area: there have been many early failures of the six-speed automatic used in the Camry and ES 350. This could become another Honda transmission case. Or maybe Toyota has already caught the problem and fixed it.
One thing to note about recalls: none of the studies, including my own, officially include them when publishing reliability stats. I have people report recalls so I can then know they're not being reported as something else, and include them if there was a reason to. Others just hope people read the instructions to the survey...
My reasoning for not including recalls is that I don't want to give manufacturers another reason to avoid issuing one, since if there is a problem a recall helps consumers.
I conduct my own vehicle reliability research at
TrueDelta, partly because I believe more recent and more frequently updated information could be useful.
I am not seeing notable problem rates in Toyotas yet. Latest results, with new ones in a couple of weeks:
TrueDelta Vehicle Reliability Survey results
One potential problem area: there have been many early failures of the six-speed automatic used in the Camry and ES 350. This could become another Honda transmission case. Or maybe Toyota has already caught the problem and fixed it.
One thing to note about recalls: none of the studies, including my own, officially include them when publishing reliability stats. I have people report recalls so I can then know they're not being reported as something else, and include them if there was a reason to. Others just hope people read the instructions to the survey...
My reasoning for not including recalls is that I don't want to give manufacturers another reason to avoid issuing one, since if there is a problem a recall helps consumers.
LOL! Funny, yet 100% true.
I've heard that an "expert" is someone who has traveled more than 50 miles and carries a suitcase.
My vote is HE** NO on Toyota quality. My 'yota was awful. Yeah the ride was quiet...when the door didn't squeak, when the window actually stayed in it's track, and it was quiet because the CD player went kaput and the radio refused to work randomly. Nor could we tell time cuz the clock up and died. Oh yeah, and sludge. And a trans recall. And cat converter shields that refused to remain attached to the vehicle. Other than that, it was a fine vehicle.
We're much happier with our GM-made and hometown Saturn Vue= (save for the drivetrain).
A friend bought a new Tundra and the doors don't seal the wind noise is awful. He is really disappointed in the fuel mileage he said his full size Chevy pickup got better millage.
All brands have problems including Toyota
All brands have problems including Toyota
One can still count CR's red and black dots for each model and trouble spot for each model year going back to 1997. Aren't these the ratings that count?
Sure, if we were interested in the reliability of 1997 model-year vehicles.
I submit data on my car to mkaresh's site.
As far as your comment, I've also been responsible for the maintenance of 4 Ford Escorts, 2 Ford Contours, and one Ford Mustang, with a total accumulated mileage (of the time I was responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of those vehicles, all of which were purchased used, so actual mileage is higher) of 200K on the Escorts, 230K on the Contours, and 70K on the Mustang. I didn't own all those cars, but I took care of them for the family members who did.
Is that enough of one brand for you???
As far as your comment, I've also been responsible for the maintenance of 4 Ford Escorts, 2 Ford Contours, and one Ford Mustang, with a total accumulated mileage (of the time I was responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of those vehicles, all of which were purchased used, so actual mileage is higher) of 200K on the Escorts, 230K on the Contours, and 70K on the Mustang. I didn't own all those cars, but I took care of them for the family members who did.
Is that enough of one brand for you???
Out of the 44 vehicles I have owned in my life of 67 years, 30 of them were Chevrolets. I've never have a bad one. Reliability has always been there. I presently own a 2005 GMC Envoy and a 2007 Silverado. I'm am completely satisfied with both of them.
Buster,How's that for owning one brand?
Buster,How's that for owning one brand?
I know a lot of people would like to see the demise of Toyota but so far all I see if my word against your word arguments. The only evidence based on studies that has been posted is by Buster and its amazing to me how people will try to spin that. Is that evidence perfect? No. But it sure is a lot better than some of these word of mouth arguments I'm hearing.
In any case, most manufacturers make reliable cars nowadays. I'd take any car from any major manufacturer and drive it across country. In fact, I no longer purchase on the basis of reputation for reliability. The maintenance history, the way the car was driven, and the price are much more important to me than the logo on the vehicle. I recently bought a Toyota Sienna because I got a killer deal on it. But my in-laws were deciding between a 2005 Buick and a 2004 Camry and I told them to buy the Buick because it had more service records and had mostly highway driving on it. Plus, the Buick cost 4k less for a newer year model. So far, they love the Buick and it is a very tight car.
In any case, most manufacturers make reliable cars nowadays. I'd take any car from any major manufacturer and drive it across country. In fact, I no longer purchase on the basis of reputation for reliability. The maintenance history, the way the car was driven, and the price are much more important to me than the logo on the vehicle. I recently bought a Toyota Sienna because I got a killer deal on it. But my in-laws were deciding between a 2005 Buick and a 2004 Camry and I told them to buy the Buick because it had more service records and had mostly highway driving on it. Plus, the Buick cost 4k less for a newer year model. So far, they love the Buick and it is a very tight car.
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