Toyota not liking Valvoline Maxlife ATF?

[doublebase]

1. That's because it was a Honda. Their transmissions are barely working as they are.
2. FLUSH MACHINE. Another big no-no, pushing the crud in all the wrong places.

Flush machine...sorry, it was more an exchange machine. It wasn’t pushing anything anywhere...didn’t add any special “cleaner” to it, nothing.

And that “barely working“ transmission from Honda lasted me till 289,000 miles (when I sold it), shifting beautifully.

But I get what you’re saying about the Honda transmission fiasco 1998-2008ish. Funny thing is, mine was a 1999 Accord. That was supposed to be the transmission that was going to fail prematurely, but it didn’t. In part because of transmission fluid changes every year, and in part because it was the 4 cylinder engine mated to it (the 6’s were too powerful for the components in those problem transmissions).

And I know what you’re saying about “flush machines”, but they are nothing more than exchangers. The problems come from two things...universal and wrong fluid. And techs selling a “cleaner” that they put and flush through the machine/transmission. Because if you own a shop or dealership, you are servicing many many different types of transmissions and all of those machines hold 3 quarts of fluid in them at all times (meaning the pump and lines have 3 quarts of whatever fluid was used previously) and the next customer is getting three quarts of THAT fluid. Or they just use a universal fluid (with the option of throwing in a friction modifier from Lube Guard, or BG or some other outfit). And I think that’s where they get their bad reputation. Oh, plus the tranny pan is not being dropped and the filter is not being changed. My Honda had no pan or filter replacement...they were not replaceable.

 

[Mainia]

First thing: check the fluid level, with engine running, fully warmed! The marks for "cold" are not that critical as the ones for "warm".

Also, there is no fluid that will fix a neglected transmission. At 160k miles it's way too late especially for the factory WS fluid (mine was completely dark at 70k miles). In the OP case the new fluid probably dissolved some gunky deposits and probably the filter or other screens/passages are clogged now.
A change of filter was/is absolutely needed at this point. And more than just one drain.

The OP transmission on that Scion xB is U241E, similar with my 2011 RAV4 U151F transmission. I have run without problems with MaxLife fill for like 1000 miles in it. But I usually do three drain-refills, 200 miles between them, to have trough clean fluid in the system. One drain is worthless IMO.
Later I added an auxiliary cooler and I refilled with Asin WS fluid (from Rockauto). This one feels even smoother and nicer, being a synthetic made my transmission manufacturer, but I don't know, maybe is a placebo and runs the same as the MaxLife.

I would never use the fluid that Toyota sells as, IMO, is overpriced and lower quality that alternatives. Not for my stop-and-go traffic in high summer temps.

Yep, I am running Redline D6 in my wife's 2014 Rav4 and at 22,000 WS, (
This cocktail mix has done me well and I learned it with my Honda Odyssey, where many on the Odyssey forum use this mix years ago. One day I had a question to ask Redline and the normal guy you all know was gone, so I was able to talk to their head R&D chemist, after he answered my ? I asked him about my cocktail mix. He said he can't suggest it for obvious reasons, but he said you would be surprised on how many people use that custom mixture with zero issues. He said he has no worry's about it, but I can't suggest it. He also said there is not an issue with the three mixture's living together as far as fluid compatibility.

 

[ZZman]

My Avalon definitely does not shift as smoothly with the Maxlife in it. I will probably change it this spring.

 

[Rochev]

Wow didn't expect so many responses, sorry for the delay. So it's shifting fine, it's just that I can feel it shifting more often than not. Yes the fluid is at the right level. It drained about half out, I've only driven it about 50 miles. The fluid was grey and smelled bad, about what you'd expect. I bought Castrol TransMax to do the next drian and fill. The car is so rusted underneath that it's not worth trying to take the pan off.

 

[Graham Piccinini]

For what it's worth: I used MaxLife in 10 Toyotas, ranging from MY1999-MY2010. Most of them worked well, 2 of the vehicles (both with A650E) started slipping. Don't know if I can blame MaxLife for that though.
- First is a 2000 Lexus GS300 with 365k miles. That tranny started slipping 5k miles after a drain & fill with MaxLife. But again, I think this failure is age/mileage related.
- Second is 2003 Lexus IS300 with 220k miles. MaxLife Drain&Fill at 190k/200k/210k/220k. But I believe that one started slipping due to my teenager brother drifting it and doing burnouts for about 3 hours daily, not an over-exaggeration. He got it at 190k, by 220k it started slipping... Not bad for an old worn transmission. Used 140k tranny went back in, gets abused slightly less thankfully.

Update to this^... My brother's 2003 IS300 just lost the torque converter on that used tranny. New TC is $250ish, and another used tranny is $75. So, with this thread in mind, on the next tranny he'll be switching to Toyota T-IV, instead of the usual MaxLife ATF. And hopefully he'll improve his driving habits a bit... That will be a third transmission in 30k miles of ownership.

 

[SoNic67]

I bought Castrol TransMax to do the next drian and fill.

...Toyota T-IV, instead of the usual MaxLife ATF

What do you have the OE fill, per your manual?
The TransMax is adequate for T-IV, but not for WS.
Similarly, the Valvoline MaxLive is adequate for WS, but not for T-IV.
One is Low Viscosity the other is normal.

 

[skrypj]

I did a drain and fill(drained 3 quarts out, refilled with 3 qts, did that 3 times) with MaxLife on my 2011 Lexus GX maybe 2000 miles ago and it likes it. I also just flushed the power steering on my 1995 4Runner with MaxLife and its the quietest and best it has ever run.

 

[Rochev]

What do you have the OE fill, per your manual?
The TransMax is adequate for T-IV, but not for WS.
Similarly, the Valvoline MaxLive is adequate for WS, but not for T-IV.
One is Low Viscosity the other is normal.

Looking into it from toyota, it takes WS. I haven't bought TransMax thankfully.

 

[The Critic]

Well here’s my solution...car was shifting right until he put aftermarket fluid in it. Drain it and put OE fluid in it...perhaps do a pan drop and change the filter.

I ran into a similar situation with a Honda. Flush machine sales guy sold us a universal fluid with Lube Guard additive. Soon as I put it into the Honda it experienced harsh shifts, delayed shifts, just weird shifts. Changed it out to OE and presto, right back to normal again.

I did a 3x drain and refill with Amsoil ATF on my wife's Accord. Initially, shifts were firmer (and more crisp) than DW1. After about 15-20K miles I experienced the same harsh, "weird" shifts. After doing 3 drain/refills with DW1 it is mostly back to normal.

 

[AutoMechanic]

I have to disagree on the on the Transmax only being ideal for the T-IV. I’ve used it in both the T-IV and the WS and have had absolutely no issues and working at Toyota for a little while I can say it’s fine to use. And using in my personal Toyota stuff as well. And both look to be about the same viscosity.

 

[SoNic67]

And both look to be about the same viscosity.

OK, Transmax means a lot of things....
"Transmax Full Synthetic Multi-Vehicle ATF" is LV fluid, while the "Transmax Import Multi-Vehicle" (that can be used instead of T-IV) is not.
Do they "work"? Yeah, probably because the transmission can adjust internal pressure of the pump for a wide range of viscosity. Should we do it? I don't know, personally I prefer to know that I have synthetic fluid in my transmission.

Transmax Full Syntetic is indeed LV:
Viscosity at 40°C, cSt ASTM D-445 30.2;
Viscosity at 100°C, cSt ASTM D-445 5.9;
Viscosity Index ASTM D-2270 161;
Brookfield Viscosity at -40 C, cP 10,000;
Pour Point, ºC (ºF) -50(-58);
Flash Point, °C (°F) 177(350)

Beck/Arnely WS
VISCOSITY AT 40°C 23.12 cSt;
VISCOSITY AT 100°C 5.338 cSt;
VISCOSITY INDEX 177;
BROOKFIELD VISCOSITY cP 7940;
POUR POINT -50°C/-58°F
FLASH POINT 172°C/342°F

AMSOIL has both versions of fluid (ATF and ATL) as full synthetic fluids:
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100˚C, cSt (ASTM D445) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7.5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.8
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40˚C, cSt (ASTM D445) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36.5 . . . . . . . . . . . 28.3
Viscosity Index (ASTM D2270) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .180 . . . . . . . . . . . .155
Pour Point ˚C (˚F) (ASTM D97) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .-46 (-51) . . . . . . . .-48 (-54)
Flash Point ˚C (˚F) (ASTM D92). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 208 (406) . . . . . . . 210 (410)
Brookfield Viscosity @ -40˚C, cP (ASTM D2983). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12245 . . . . . . . . . .10864

For AISIN WS I don't have all the data, just Flash point of 214 C. That's how you can tell a Group IV synthetic fluid from a Group III - flash point over 200 C. Any fluid less than that, but over 150 C, is probably a Group III.
Note that, unlike US, Germany and Japan have a rule that prevents fluids in Group III, sold on their markets, to be called "Synthetic".

 

[Dave1027]

I'm not sure this applies to the Scion but I use MaxLife ATF in my '07 Toyota Tacoma which is also spec'd for Toyota WS ATF. Works perfect. Might even work better than the stock WS fluid.

 

[MolaKule]

...For AISIN WS I don't have all the data, just Flash point of 214 C. That's how you can tell a Group IV synthetic fluid from a Group III - flash point over 200 C. Any fluid less than that, but over 150 C, is probably a Group III....

I don't think one can determine base oil type from Flashpoint alone.

See the Chevron CHEVRON NEUTRAL OIL (Group II/II+) oil properties listing below:

 

[nthach]

Thanks. I would have imagined the extra viscosity would result in firmer shifts.

And the friction modifiers. Remember B&M Trick Shift? I think it was closer to Ford Type F fluid vs. Dexron fluid and it provided firmer shifts on old school vacuum or cable modulated trannies.

Today’s units use algorithms and PWM to control shifting and the clutches want a fluid that has a certain amount of “slip” to it.

 

[SoNic67]

I don't think one can determine base oil type from Flashpoint alone.

See the Chevron CHEVRON NEUTRAL OIL (Group II/II+) oil properties listing below:

Indeed, that's just a general rule, and always there are exceptions. But those are just that, exceptions and I don't advocate to read ONLY one data point from the published sheet. You have clipped my comment out of context, that specific post has ALL the oil characteristics published.

That example datasheet, of Group II/II+ hydroprocessed oils, states that they were specifically created to mimic a Group III while maintaining Group II label. Older engines (classic era cars), that have older type of seals, might require that, IDK.
Their additive pack is an exception to what is out there generally for Group II oils, and personally I would not select an heavily additived oil over a base oil that does not require so many additives. Additives that will wear out in time.

Polyalphaolefin (PAO) Lubricants Explained

Polyalphaolefin PAO base oils are superior to many other lubricant types and have a higher temperature resistance to mineral oil.

www.machinerylubrication.com

Polyalphaolefin does not contain ring structures, double bonds, sulphur, nitrogen components or waxy hydrocarbons. The absence of these structures and materials results in a very non-polar base oil with a high viscosity index (of approximately 130), excellent low-temperature flow and pour-point characteristics, good oxidation stability and compatibility with mineral oils, paints and seals commonly found in lube oil systems. Because of their controlled structure, PAOs do not contain lighter, more volatile (small) hydrocarbons. This lowers their volatility, creates less hydrocarbon tailpipe emissions and raises the flash point.