Toyota BEV Announcement.

[PimTac]

Solar and wind may have their place but I don’t like the idea of converting thousands of acres of land into solar or wind farms.

Even some beautiful regions like the Horse Heaven Hills in Eastern Washington are getting wind turbines. That is a beautiful drive that will be lost.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

You must have not taken chemistry etc. There are articles after article written explaining why hydrogen is not viable alternative. From the low amount found on Earth to the fact that the little hydrogen available is bonded to other elements way high up in the atmosphere. The only real way that hydrogen power would be feasible is if we all lived on Jupiter where hydrogen is the primary element floating freely. Since it's a gas giant and has no land to stand on that isn't feasible either.

Google hydrogen powered trucks in California I guess some people don't agree with you Mr. Science!

 

[Torrid]

Google hydrogen powered trucks in California I guess some people don't agree with you Mr. Science!

It exists in small quantities. It can be done. California much like Jupiter is basically a different planet.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yeah and a point I have talked about in here for the last year comes into play. The public or should I say media pop tarts are out to lunch if they think the USA electric grid will support an all battery EV society or even 20% battery EV saturation on our roadways.
When the day comes that the public wakes up to that fact, H2 might be the answer and guess who will be there ready and able?
Just like they have the answer right now for the Solid State Battery. These ideas and products arent developed overnight.

Let's also keep in mind as pointed out in here H2 is used already in heavy vehicles and also light vehicles like warehouse fork lifts.

As we've discussed before, H2 has the same challenges as EV's, because it requires electricity to produce (not using methane reformation), but imposes other obstacles along the way such as handling and transport.

 

[OVERKILL]

It seems to be working for trucks in Kalifornia I read the other day. Right now though I think if you buy one the only source for your fuel is the dealerships that have sold them. But things will change. Big oil has screwed us so badly I hope they keep them out of the market for this energy source!

They are the market currently. The primarily source of hydrogen is methane reformation, which is done by fossil fuel companies. Hydrogen produced in California using electrolysis, I can't even imagine the cost given their rates.

 

[alarmguy]

As we've discussed before, H2 has the same challenges as EV's, because it requires electricity to produce (not using methane reformation), but imposes other obstacles along the way such as handling and transport.

I dont disagree with you, learned a lot from you but sometimes obstacles are overcome, such as the new Solid State Battery I would think.

 

[OVERKILL]

I dont disagree with you, learned a lot from you but sometimes obstacles are overcome, such as the new Solid State Battery I would think.

I'm just saying, it's the same obstacle, you need more power whether we are going EV or H2 (using electrolysis), the expansion of generating assets required is considerable. We are seeing huge growth in the VRE space due to REC's and other subsidies, but this isn't going to enable either of those scenarios due to intermittency, which brings us back to gas as the backup. So if you are burning gas to make H2, or using methane reformation to make H2, you aren't any cleaner; you haven't reduced emissions.

I'm interested to see how the solid state battery thing pans out. The key will be power density. Sodium ion batteries don't present the same issues as lithium for example, but the issue with them is much lower energy density. That throws a huge spanner in the mix if you are trying to increase range.

 

[wag123]

Now it turns out Toyota just made Tesla battery technology obsolete. GM meanwhile will not confirm but analysts have been saying they expect GM to pull in up to another 40 billion in profits by keeping production longer in the ICE trucks and SUVs. Let's not forget though, I think right now, GM like Tesla will be stuck with old battery technology, yet at least GM has ICE.

Prime Planet Energy & Solutions Inc (the battery joint venture of Toyota Motor Corp. and Panasonic) is not the only company who has been developing Solid State Batteries. QuantumScape (VW Group & Bill Gates), Solid Power (Ford & BMW), ProLogium (Mercedes), Factorial Energy (Stellantis & Hyundai), LG Energy Solution (Honda), Albemarle, GM, and Nissan are all developing Solid State Batteries. Some of these companies are farther along than other companies. Prime Planet Energy (Toyota/Panasonic) appears to be much farther along and much closer to viable commercial production than any of the others, which stands to reason as they have invested the most resources and time in the effort.
Tesla won't be left out of the loop. Let's not forget where they have been getting their batteries from... Panasonic (18650 cells, 2170 cells, and 4680 cells which are also being manufactured inside Tesla's Gigafactory Texas). They will also be using prismatic batteries (lithium-iron-phosphate) manufactured by Chinese CATL. You can be sure that they will obtain Solid State Batteries soon after they become available, likely from Panasonic.
I know that we are talking about EVs here, but Solid State Batteries are going to be a HUGE game changer for ALL rechargeable battery powered devices. Whomever comes with economically viable Solid State Batteries is going to make a boatload of money! This is why Toyota and Panasonic are all over this technology. Through last summer they have been issued over 1800 patents on the technology, far more than anyone else. Toyota has been researching solid-state batteries since the 1990s, and its patents cover a wide ranging field that includes battery structure, material, and manufacturing processes.

 

[PimTac]

Panasonic has sure come a long ways from their transistor radio days.

 

[alarmguy]

Prime Planet Energy & Solutions Inc (the battery joint venture of Toyota Motor Corp. and Panasonic) is not the only company who has been developing Solid State Batteries....

Yeah, I am aware of this (just an FYI) Toyota 1st to announce producing vehicles with them though (that I know of). Meaning they seem to indicate that they have the process down, start to finish. Not to say others might now announce a schedule more sooner.
Im also aware other companies produce H2 EV's ... Toyota one of them who will be ready should a game changer happen in the coming decade or decades regarding H2.
Anyway, game changer the solid state batteries will be, I made some mention of them a while back in this forum.

 

[alarmguy]

Panasonic has sure come a long ways from their transistor radio days.

yeah and some time after that those Panasonic batteries that came with gadgets to us were just "knockoff" Duracell or Eveready
Panasonic was at one time a great consumer brand though.

 

[Shel_B]

yeah and some time after that those Panasonic batteries that came with gadgets to us were just "knockoff" Duracell or Eveready
Panasonic was at one time a great consumer brand though.

No longer? What happened?

 

[alarmguy]

No longer? What happened?

I dont know, competition I guess from all different countries, lost their edge in producing what people wanted?
Or, the name just got tired?
I suspect more of a saturated market with new product lines from S. Korea and China.
Its cool that they survived and their name might be well known in other countries meaning, lets say, for TV's they abandoned the USA market a long time ago but at that time I know they were not abandoning other parts of the world.
The world is awash in electronics made cheaply and I suspect why they're exit from certain aspects of the market.
Decades ago if you were buying a Panasonic product you were assured quality

 

[PimTac]

yeah and some time after that those Panasonic batteries that came with gadgets to us were just "knockoff" Duracell or Eveready
Panasonic was at one time a great consumer brand though.

They still are. Their consumer products are not available in the US. I have a Panasonic split air conditioner. I will probably install more of them. Refrigerators are another big seller. They are also huge in the personal health sector. I also own one of their blood pressure monitors.

Ascensia, the glucose testing meters and strips maker is a combination of Panasonic Health and Bayer. I use their Contour Next meter and strips.

 

[DwightFrye]

It's good to see Toyota is finally seeing the writing on the wall and stepping up their EV or BEV development. However I remain quite skeptical of their claim for range. And while solid state batteries are a nice concept we are probably another decade away from seeing them developed to the point of practicality and cost-effectiveness. That being said, a decade can pass rather quickly.

But, it is smart for Toyota to be gaining experience and capturing some market share over the coming years. I sure hope though that their new vehicle doesn't have the kind of technical and mechanical issues that their Tundra truck has. You'd think they were farming them out to GM or Ford.

 

[Trav]

Diversification, Toyota is working on just that. IMO they are going remain a winner in the long run because of their diversification. To get the grid ready for all electric is going to take a lot longer than many of the EV proponents are willing to admit. IMO Toyota knows the deal.

The thing is Toyota has proven itself to be a good company that will stand behind its products if things go wrong. Tesla on the other hand has some of the least reliable cars on the market and not good with the warranty.

https://insideevs.com/news/396389/tesla-warranty-terms-change/

 

[wag123]

It's good to see Toyota is finally seeing the writing on the wall and stepping up their EV or BEV development.

What?
I would like to point out that Toyota was the first and only auto manufacturer that started R&D on practical commercially viable hybrid/electric vehicle power way back in the 1980s, long before anyone else even thought about doing it. Much of the technology used in both HEVs and BEVs that we take for granted today was developed by Toyota. They were also the first and only auto manufacturer that started R&D on solid state batteries back in the 1990s. Toyota takes a long-term view on everything that they do, and they knew many years ago that HEVs and BEVs were going to be the answer in the long run, again, LONG before anyone else did.

I remain quite skeptical of their claim for range. And while solid state batteries are a nice concept we are probably another decade away from seeing them developed to the point of practicality and cost-effectiveness.

Range is one of the primary objectives for developing solid state batteries. Other primary objectives include... lower weight, reduced size, safety, longevity, and super fast high-rate charging capability. The fact that Toyota is on the cusp of manufacturing and using solid state batteries in their vehicles within the next 2-3 years shows that they have achieved most or all of their goals and that they will be able to manufacture them economically.

Toyota never liked Li-Ion batteries, they thought that the batteries were too dangerous to use in vehicles. This is why they have used NiMh batteries almost exclusively in their hybrids. They also knew that the solid state batteries they were developing were going to be the answer and it was only a matter of time that the technology would be perfected and the batteries would be economically viable to produce. They have been purposely slow-walking BEV production because of this.

 

[alarmguy]

It's good to see Toyota is finally seeing the writing on the wall and stepping up their EV or BEV development. However I remain quite skeptical of their claim for range. And while solid state batteries are a nice concept we are probably another decade away from seeing them developed to the point of practicality and cost-effectiveness. That being said, a decade can pass rather quickly.

But, it is smart for Toyota to be gaining experience and capturing some market share over the coming years. I sure hope though that their new vehicle doesn't have the kind of technical and mechanical issues that their Tundra truck has. You'd think they were farming them out to GM or Ford.

Writing on the wall? Stepping up? Gaining Experience? This didnt happen overnight to pull ahead of everyone on Solid State Battery announcement. With less than or equal to 1% of vehicles on the road being EVs maybe it's Toyota ahead of everyone else doing things the correct way by taking the long term view. Solid state batteries will leave everyone in the dust, more so companies exposed to only EV manufacturing like Tesla.
With that said I guess everyone else will be copying them ...

• The new unit, named BEV Factory, is aiming to produce electric vehicles with a range of 1,000 kilometers.
• BEV Factory will introduce a full lineup of battery electric vehicles with “next generation” batteries from 2026.

 

[PimTac]

A automobile company can either sell vehicles based on the needs of the consumers or based on an agenda. Toyota knows what consumers want. Electric may be part of the future but consumers want range and quick charging.

In the meantime the hybrid platform is available in several configurations depending on the customers needs. Toyota still holds the gold standard for hybrids.

 

[Shel_B]

Toyota Teases Crown Electric Sedan

CLICK HERE

And in aerodynamics, the company promises to take advantage of boundary layer control knowledge—from the hypersonic aerodynamic work of rockets—to “reduce aerodynamic drag without being restricted by the shape of the car.”

The company also noted technology it’s developing with supplier Denso that incorporates silicon carbide wafers for 50% less power loss—boosting efficiency by 10%.