... and then ,,, Toyota brings to market the solid state battery. There is the game changer
Toyota BEV Announcement.
- Thread starter PimTac
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Toyota sells more cars than anyone in the USA, hardly missed any target. Some people live in a world void of reality with statements like "Wait till the big boys get in." "Still waiting" What are you waiting for? A car company to produce cars like you want? Ugh... sometimes I think these comments come from some alternate universe.
While the world was clamoring over the newest EV power cars, Toyota was busy developing a Solid State Battery and just once again will maintain its lead in USA vehicle sales.
One day, when and if H2 becomes the next step, Toyota is already there and waiting.
Meanwhile they have products that people want and that is the ICE vehicle.
You're correct though, it's just business and Tesla as well as almost any vehicle maker could only dream to sell as many vehicles as Toyota. Tesla's model line up is pathetic, it is Tesla that will miss the target if they dont get their act together. If they dont, once the enthusiast market is saturated the market that counts, the typical American buyer will continue to buy (as they are now) the competitions vehicles.
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You fail to say that while they may have the highest satisfaction rating they are also the least reliable. You seem to ignore the fact that Tesla has amended the warranty that now includes once covered failures in area that Tesla totally fails on, body, interior and cosmetics.
There is no comparison to Porsche and many others, they are in another universe. Porsche has been building some of the most iconic cars ever made for over 70 years.
You have made the claim that for an ev a car that is designed to be an ev needs to be a ground up design while failing to mention that Musk bought the Roadster as a Lotus Elise knock down and did an ev conversion.
Tesla sure seems more like the cell phone Nokia and Ericsson, they were the absolute tops in the field with high return stock prices until other companies got into the game.
Letting Ford and GM use the charging stations may cause some real friction with Tesla owners, it could get real interesting.
I am not interesting in going back and forth with you, the point is you are a fan with your free electricity perpetually promoting these things that are not all they are cracked up to be.
https://insideevs.com/news/396389/tesla-warranty-terms-change/
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-least-reliable-ev-brand-uk-survey-2022-3
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Add that Toyota also needs to make their EV reliable and competitive vis-s-vis range performance for the price range that it actually sells for.
As far as the "build quality" or lack thereof that some people claim that Tesla struggles with, assume for a second that it really is a big issue on every car that leaves their factories. OK, what do you think are easier and less expensive issues to deal with for an auto manufacturer. Improving the panel fit, paint quality and/or interior materials or developing batteries, software, drive trains and making sure they don't catch on fire or turn out to be a real dog like a Nissan Leaf or whatever that discontinued Chevy EV was ?
I guarantee you that if the poor build quality that some claim Tesla's have was really endemic throughout their entire line, and therefore garnered enough complaints and poor JD Power ratings, Elon would authorize the ECO's (Engineering Change Orders for those of you in Rio Linda) and spend a tiny fraction of their huge profit margins to address the problem.
Not that there is always room for improvement and I agree that for their selling prices the interiors should appear more luxurious but the "poor build quality" that people like to parrot isn't a major issue.
Toyota is not "there and waiting" for H2, they are actively developing and promoting it, not only electric fuel cell technology for EVs, but also for hydrogen fueled ICE engines (more practical for heavy trucks). They are VERY serious about hydrogen becoming a major green fuel source for the future. So is Cummins who is also heavily involved in hydrogen fueled ICE development.
https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/hydrogen-combustion-engine-toyota-2/8556753/
https://www.cummins.com/news/2022/01/27/hydrogen-internal-combustion-engines-and-hydrogen-fuel-cells
We're in the infant's teething stage, I wouldn't count anyone out, especially Toyota. Elon's biggest challenge imo is going to be the grid. All these electric Superchargers and the cars using them are going have to get power from somewhere. I doubt solar and windmills are going to provide it. There's going to be a lot of oil, gas, coal burning, or nukes. The go green people here in the USA aren't fans of any of those. So once again time will tell.
In the universe we both live in Telsa is the most valuable automaker on planet earth and it really isnt even close.
Toyota and everyone else let that happen right out from under them while claiming it was impossible the entire time and here we are today.
The number 1 selling vehicle in the world that isnt a truck is a Tesla Model Y so who is it that needs to get their act together ?
I eager to see what Toyota can actually do, but so far they aren't even in the ballpark and very much have to prove it.
I agree with you, my choice of words could’ve been better I guess!
You see I have this feeling that Americans one day will realize or ask the following question=
If my current electric utility asks me to conserve power on high usage days and threatens rolling blackouts how the heck are they going to supply electric power for 20 million American cars?
I know someone here is pretty knowledgeable on h2 hurdles but I still have to wonder and think it will be cheaper than the enormous cost of a national upgrade to the electric grid.
I guess will know the answer when there’s 20 million battery operated electric vehicles out there which will be never
Porsche is a legendary company, no doubt. You said (post #69) people don't like Teslas because of the profit margin. Wrong; Tesla and Porsche both rank tops in customer sat. Both are high margin as well.
The original Roadster used the Lotus platform; that was a springboard. The rest are ground up. My point is, an EV only platform results in a no compromise, better EV. And Toyota now agrees, right?
Comparing Tesla to the cell phone companies is conjecture. That's not my approach. Where will Tesla end up? That remians to be seen but the market is betting strongly on them as compared to what, the next 10 car companies combined?
Letting Ford and GM use their Supercharger only strengthens Tesla; it is a huge revenue stream. The network will grow faster, but now Ford/GM will pay for it. The Supercharger was a huge and perhaps risky investment; it seems to be paying off. Basically, Tesla owns the gas stations.
You are right; I am a fan of this great American car company. Tesla has given employment to more than 20,000 workers in the Fremont plant. I bought the car partially in support of that. It is great to see an American car company leading the world again. That's my opinion. By the way, I am also a fan of other vehicles, look at my cars. My Oldsey is one of the most original copies left. My Vette has been a labor of love, a true money pit. I could cut loose of any of my cars, but not the Tundra. You have no idea of who I am.
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Market value is the company's value calculated from its current stock price and rarely reflects the actual value of a company. Market value is, instead, almost more of a measure of public sentiment about a company and the demand for it's stock. In Tesla's case, their stock value is way overinflated relative to the company's actual cash value.
No matter how many vehicles Tesla sells or how much profit they make in the short term, BEVs are primarily urban/suburban transportation for the fortunate few that can afford to purchase them and have a place where they can charge them. In urban environments, only homeowners can really use them, renters (particularly apartment dwellers) are being and will continue to be left out. In the United States, 38% of renters nationwide live in in apartment buildings (with five or more units), and in some of the larger US cities over 70% live in apartment buildings. Furthermore, BEVs are not well suited for rural use, and America is a LOT rural! There is now, and always will be, a limited market for BEVs.
Meanwhile, Toyota is currently manufacturing vehicles that most Americans can afford to purchase and use by everybody everywhere, and they are doing heavy R&D to develop multiple technologies simultaneously for the long-term.
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The big boy statement is from the naysayers, right? So far they have been wrong. That's the numbers. Tesla is in the leadership position, by a country mile. Toyota is a great car company, I own 2 of their vehicles. I have pointed out their EV plan reversal by promoting CEO Sato; things are changing. I expect great things form them, but so far all we have is talk.
I agree, time will tell. We are at an inflection point.
Your opinion on the worth of the stock isnt relevant to their current global standing as the most valuable car company.
Of course. A company’s market value is an indication of investors’ perceptions about its business prospects. It is a forward looking number. Market cap is not intended to be a balance sheet.
The corollary to your point is, why are all the other car companies performing so pooly in terms of market cap?
I don't see people hating Tesla because it makes a lot of money outside of the red states, I don't know why because 1) it is a US company, and 2) hating others making lots of money isn't really a red state thing to me.
I think Teslas are pretty cool, just not for me since I am more of a low margin reliable car kind of guy, but I don't think people driving them are anyone unique or better off than others, we just have different priorities in life.
Talking about reliability, Tesla so far seems good, just not polished and a lot of little "first year car" thing and stupid mistakes like putting logging in the same flash chip with the drivetrain firmware. You want a tech startup company building cars and move fast, this is the kind of cars you are getting. I'll stick with my Toyota. The one that's real bad about reliability: "We are German and we know engineering" and "it is your fault if my designs do not work in your area, your road sucks, your mechanics don't know how to maintain it, your fuel has ethanol, and you didn't go to the dealer to buy OEM parts". Yes I used to work for a German engineering company, it is really in the German engineers' DNA to assume the world outside of the lab and factory is perfect and they don't really build in safety margins.
I think Teslas are pretty cool, just not for me since I am more of a low margin reliable car kind of guy, but I don't think people driving them are anyone unique or better off than others, we just have different priorities in life.
Talking about reliability, Tesla so far seems good, just not polished and a lot of little "first year car" thing and stupid mistakes like putting logging in the same flash chip with the drivetrain firmware. You want a tech startup company building cars and move fast, this is the kind of cars you are getting. I'll stick with my Toyota. The one that's real bad about reliability: "We are German and we know engineering" and "it is your fault if my designs do not work in your area, your road sucks, your mechanics don't know how to maintain it, your fuel has ethanol, and you didn't go to the dealer to buy OEM parts". Yes I used to work for a German engineering company, it is really in the German engineers' DNA to assume the world outside of the lab and factory is perfect and they don't really build in safety margins.
It is only the most valuable on paper, and it isn't my opinion, it is the opinion of experts.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/11/05/is-tesla-stock-overvalued/
There is reality and there is opinion. One pays the bills and the other doesn't.
Experts have been dead wrong about Tesla since day one.
Regardless, here's Forbes' current take.
"Tesla has been a strong performer in the past. Although it has faced some difficulties in the past year or two, analysts are optimistic abouts its future.
In a Nasdaq analysis of recommendations from 30 analysts, Tesla had a “buy” recommendation."
The roller coaster continues.
"Warren Buffett remains a value investor at heart. His top factor in determining whether or not to buy a stock is valuation. And for the legendary investor, the price simply isn't right with Tesla."
"Buffett won't buy Tesla stock until he's comfortable with its valuation."
https://www.fool.com/investing/2023/05/16/why-warren-buffett-does-not-own-tesla-stock/
You have cherry picked 2 articles. TSLA is up 137% YTD which shows them both wrong. Mr. Buffet missed out, right?
Wish I had bought more when it was down, don't you?
By the way, the short sellers are down like $9B this year.
Probably. But here's what you failed to address from my earlier post: "Elon's biggest challenge imo is going to be the grid. All these electric Superchargers and the cars using them are going have to get power from somewhere. I doubt solar and windmills are going to provide it. There's going to be a lot of oil, gas, coal burning, or nukes. The go green people here in the USA aren't fans of any of those. So once again time will tell."
Care to take a stab at that? Will Elon pay to redo the grid? Or is oil, gas, coal, and nukes going to supply the power while the tree huggers protest, and the powers that be figure it out where to get all the electricity from? Lets not forget the greenies want to take away gas heat, gas stoves, gas hot water heaters too, we'll need even more juice for that. Oh and oil heat and hot water is in the crosshairs too. I'd love to hear the answer, not a guess.
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