Maybe so. If it does go deeper than taste I'd be interested to know, too. That was the only reason I could think of, though.
Tough pistol choice
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As far as philosophies go, comparing a Holland&Holland hand made O&U to say an assembly line Ruger Red Label is really apples and oranges, and I am yet to be convinced that the stamped receivers and sloppy tolerances of the AK and Sturmgewehr were a philosophy and not simply the by product of necessity.
Obviously I'm not talking about comparing cheap trash to fine O/U guns. I'm saying, take a nice example of an American double, like a nice parker or an old, high grade Winchester and compare that to something nice from Europe. To me (and it is a matter of taste) there is really no comparison.
As to the rifles, their design was also necessity, at least for wartime Germany, but the philosophy was one that the soldier needed a weapon that would function virtually regardless of training or maintenance and the weapon should be able to be built and repaired in very low cost machine shops out of readily available and cheap parts. The stamped receivers and sloppy tolerances are exactly what makes these guns great and were very much a part of the design. They do what they are meant to do excellently well, which is never quit. Their tolerances do not allow for accuracy beyond 100 yards or so, but there were other, more powerful guns and trained shooters for those targets.
Now, bear in mind that all of my pistols (except for the little vest pocket .25s) are American made, my hunting rifle is a Winchester 70, because I don't need to have anything better (and there really are very few better), and every one of my shotguns are American made.
As to the rifles, their design was also necessity, at least for wartime Germany, but the philosophy was one that the soldier needed a weapon that would function virtually regardless of training or maintenance and the weapon should be able to be built and repaired in very low cost machine shops out of readily available and cheap parts. The stamped receivers and sloppy tolerances are exactly what makes these guns great and were very much a part of the design. They do what they are meant to do excellently well, which is never quit. Their tolerances do not allow for accuracy beyond 100 yards or so, but there were other, more powerful guns and trained shooters for those targets.
Now, bear in mind that all of my pistols (except for the little vest pocket .25s) are American made, my hunting rifle is a Winchester 70, because I don't need to have anything better (and there really are very few better), and every one of my shotguns are American made.
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Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
D. I dont care for american firearms
Any particular reason for that?
Mainly price. I dont see why Springfields and Garands cost so [censored] much. They are merely a surplus rifle like Mosin Nagants and Mausers. And they are domestic which usually means costs less. But NO!! Thats in a nutshell why I dont care for American surplus. I can get a new Dragunov sniper rifle or the basic rifle most soldiers carried. I can buy a fantastic NEW AK or AR15 for that! And same goes for 1911's. A decent foreign made one is ok for $4-500 but thats not what 1911's are all about [censored] it. So to get a good military style American made one its gunna cost ya a decent amount. Dont get me started on M1 Carbines either. They [censored] me off even more.
And to answer GMboys question about using the Makarov as a protection piece ya I would be very confident in it. Its a very popular concealed carry weapon. Also they are built on the same principals as the AK. I would use any pistol as a protection firearm and feel confident that it would fire because I keep my weapons lubed and clean. I dont carry anything on me at the time but at home I like to think of my Mosin Nagant M44 as my piece of choice. Even if you dont have any bullets that things got a good bayonet on it that can stab across the room.
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
D. I dont care for american firearms
Any particular reason for that?
Mainly price. I dont see why Springfields and Garands cost so [censored] much. They are merely a surplus rifle like Mosin Nagants and Mausers. And they are domestic which usually means costs less. But NO!! Thats in a nutshell why I dont care for American surplus. I can get a new Dragunov sniper rifle or the basic rifle most soldiers carried. I can buy a fantastic NEW AK or AR15 for that! And same goes for 1911's. A decent foreign made one is ok for $4-500 but thats not what 1911's are all about [censored] it. So to get a good military style American made one its gunna cost ya a decent amount. Dont get me started on M1 Carbines either. They [censored] me off even more.
And to answer GMboys question about using the Makarov as a protection piece ya I would be very confident in it. Its a very popular concealed carry weapon. Also they are built on the same principals as the AK. I would use any pistol as a protection firearm and feel confident that it would fire because I keep my weapons lubed and clean. I dont carry anything on me at the time but at home I like to think of my Mosin Nagant M44 as my piece of choice. Even if you dont have any bullets that things got a good bayonet on it that can stab across the room.
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Originally Posted By: wwillson
yaris,
You might ask this question at Praticallyshooting our shooting site. There are a some really knowledgeable folks over there.
Wayne
Mostly the same people that post on here, but its is better.
yaris,
You might ask this question at Praticallyshooting our shooting site. There are a some really knowledgeable folks over there.
Wayne
Mostly the same people that post on here, but its is better.
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
D. I dont care for american firearms
Any particular reason for that?
It's a matter of taste, I'm sure. As for myself, there are certain varieties of guns that I would prefer made with an other-than-american philosophy. Your short range semi-auto/auto rifle, for instance, is a design I much prefer designed with the soviet or german philosophy. I'd jump over a pile of brand new ARs to get a used AK variant. I like American pistols and pump guns, but American doubles are simply not up to par with some of the european offerings. Also, while American bolt-actions are good, they don't define the genre like Mausers. I can see not liking American Arms, even though I like many kinds of them myself. It's not burning the flag or anything.
As the owner of both AK's and AR15's I agree with you there!
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
D. I dont care for american firearms
Any particular reason for that?
It's a matter of taste, I'm sure. As for myself, there are certain varieties of guns that I would prefer made with an other-than-american philosophy. Your short range semi-auto/auto rifle, for instance, is a design I much prefer designed with the soviet or german philosophy. I'd jump over a pile of brand new ARs to get a used AK variant. I like American pistols and pump guns, but American doubles are simply not up to par with some of the european offerings. Also, while American bolt-actions are good, they don't define the genre like Mausers. I can see not liking American Arms, even though I like many kinds of them myself. It's not burning the flag or anything.
As the owner of both AK's and AR15's I agree with you there!
Originally Posted By: Big_Kat
I got my from Wideners. Two mags, free shipping, $199.99 OTD
Im checking out that website right now and Im impressed! Way better than J&Gsales! Thanks for posting that.
I got my from Wideners. Two mags, free shipping, $199.99 OTD
Im checking out that website right now and Im impressed! Way better than J&Gsales! Thanks for posting that.
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
D. I dont care for american firearms
Any particular reason for that?
Mainly price. I dont see why Springfields and Garands cost so [censored] much. They are merely a surplus rifle like Mosin Nagants and Mausers. And they are domestic which usually means costs less. But NO!! Thats in a nutshell why I dont care for American surplus. I can get a new Dragunov sniper rifle or the basic rifle most soldiers carried. I can buy a fantastic NEW AK or AR15 for that! And same goes for 1911's. A decent foreign made one is ok for $4-500 but thats not what 1911's are all about [censored] it. So to get a good military style American made one its gunna cost ya a decent amount. Dont get me started on M1 Carbines either. They [censored] me off even more.
I respect that.
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
Originally Posted By: yaris0128
D. I dont care for american firearms
Any particular reason for that?
Mainly price. I dont see why Springfields and Garands cost so [censored] much. They are merely a surplus rifle like Mosin Nagants and Mausers. And they are domestic which usually means costs less. But NO!! Thats in a nutshell why I dont care for American surplus. I can get a new Dragunov sniper rifle or the basic rifle most soldiers carried. I can buy a fantastic NEW AK or AR15 for that! And same goes for 1911's. A decent foreign made one is ok for $4-500 but thats not what 1911's are all about [censored] it. So to get a good military style American made one its gunna cost ya a decent amount. Dont get me started on M1 Carbines either. They [censored] me off even more.
I respect that.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Do you have any modern made pistols (Glock, Sig, Beretta, Smith&Wesson, etc)? If not I would save your money up and get a reliabe new pistol first. Surplus arms are fun to shoot and may be good for self defense, but I would go with a newer gun first. If you have newer non surplus stuff already, then go ahead and add both to your collection.
+1, get a good deal on a sig 226 in 9mm and I think youll be happy with it.
Do you have any modern made pistols (Glock, Sig, Beretta, Smith&Wesson, etc)? If not I would save your money up and get a reliabe new pistol first. Surplus arms are fun to shoot and may be good for self defense, but I would go with a newer gun first. If you have newer non surplus stuff already, then go ahead and add both to your collection.
+1, get a good deal on a sig 226 in 9mm and I think youll be happy with it.
Well found something thats taking my mind off both these pistols. The Century Arms C-15A1 (M16A1) rifle for only $630. Ive been looking for a good A1 or A2 for a long time. Anyone know much about these rifles or have seen/fired one before?
I have a surplus CZ-82. It's dead reliable and was in excellent shape when I bought it. It's cheap to feed (Russian 9x18 runs around $9 for a box of 50).
Some people consider this to be a slightly light caliber for self defense, but I don't feel underpowered as it points and shoots very naturally and I can put 12 shots in a pretty tight group at any reasonable self defense range. I would stick with FMJ as I don't think most HP will expand consistently. Even people that think the round is slightly weak for self defense will carry a CZ-82 as a backup gun or a concealed carry.
That Tokarev is an interesting round. It has a higher muzzle energy but it is only a 30 caliber bullet. The velocity is such that it will actually defeat many types of armor and will go right through a standard issue U.S. kevlar helmet. The issue is over penetration and making relatively small holes that don't do enough tissue damage to be effective. You'll get opinions pro and con for it's knockdown power. It also is fairly cheap to feed, but most of the cheap ammo is older mil surplus and is generally corrosive. Corrosive isn't that big of a deal, that gun was made to shoot it, you just have to be diligent about it and clean the gun after each shooting session (something you should be doing anyway). You can find current production commercial ammo for it but you'll be ordering it over the internet and it won't be as cheap as the mil surplus stuff. The Toks do have quite a bark when they're fired.
Some people consider this to be a slightly light caliber for self defense, but I don't feel underpowered as it points and shoots very naturally and I can put 12 shots in a pretty tight group at any reasonable self defense range. I would stick with FMJ as I don't think most HP will expand consistently. Even people that think the round is slightly weak for self defense will carry a CZ-82 as a backup gun or a concealed carry.
That Tokarev is an interesting round. It has a higher muzzle energy but it is only a 30 caliber bullet. The velocity is such that it will actually defeat many types of armor and will go right through a standard issue U.S. kevlar helmet. The issue is over penetration and making relatively small holes that don't do enough tissue damage to be effective. You'll get opinions pro and con for it's knockdown power. It also is fairly cheap to feed, but most of the cheap ammo is older mil surplus and is generally corrosive. Corrosive isn't that big of a deal, that gun was made to shoot it, you just have to be diligent about it and clean the gun after each shooting session (something you should be doing anyway). You can find current production commercial ammo for it but you'll be ordering it over the internet and it won't be as cheap as the mil surplus stuff. The Toks do have quite a bark when they're fired.
ONLY a .30 caliber bullet.
LOL
Like 30-06. and 7.62 nato. and 7.62x39. and 30-30. and .30 carbine. ETC ETC.
LOL
Like 30-06. and 7.62 nato. and 7.62x39. and 30-30. and .30 carbine. ETC ETC.
I had read about the penetration of the 7.62x25 Tokarev round and was skeptical about it's penetrating power - until I tried it on a Kevlar vest and trauma pack.
I hung the vest on one of the half inch thick rubber mats at my local range and shot at a distance of 10-15 ft. I shot FMJ 9x19 rounds out of my P38 and the FMJ (Romanian) 7.62x25 rounds from my Romanian Tokarev TT33C.
The thin Kevlar vest by itself stopped the 9x19 rounds. The Tokarev went right through.
Next, I shot the 7.62x25 round at the trauma pack that was taped to the front of the vest. The Tokarev rounds went through the trauma pack, through the vest, through the rubber mat and into the dirt bank. Surprising.
This is certainly NOT a good round for CC or home defense!
I hung the vest on one of the half inch thick rubber mats at my local range and shot at a distance of 10-15 ft. I shot FMJ 9x19 rounds out of my P38 and the FMJ (Romanian) 7.62x25 rounds from my Romanian Tokarev TT33C.
The thin Kevlar vest by itself stopped the 9x19 rounds. The Tokarev went right through.
Next, I shot the 7.62x25 round at the trauma pack that was taped to the front of the vest. The Tokarev rounds went through the trauma pack, through the vest, through the rubber mat and into the dirt bank. Surprising.
This is certainly NOT a good round for CC or home defense!
Yeah it's quick little booger.
I REALLY want an AR chambered in tokarev, but I don't really want to pay yhe 800 bucks for it.
Stopped by my gun shop and got my CZ-82 ordered through wideners.com thanks to big kat for posting the site. Got her for 199.99 total and a 20 transfer fee. Not bad! They had a 1954 Romanian Mosin-Nagant M44 on the wall. Snagged that for $100 with tax. They offered me a Lee-Enfield for only $150 but it had a swapped Monte Carlo butt stock and the rest original. Amazing price but I couldn't do it over that butt stock... soo ugly.
Originally Posted By: Rix
ONLY a .30 caliber bullet.
LOL
Like 30-06. and 7.62 nato. and 7.62x39. and 30-30. and .30 carbine. ETC ETC.
The Tok round is of considerably lower mass than the rounds you are quoting. Apples and oranges. HP is difficult to find in 7.62x25 and hence this high velocity FMJ round has a tendency to go right through tissue and leave a clean exit wound. For a self defense round, you want energy, frontal area, and ideally expansion in order to do maximal damage to an assailant so that he goes down and doesn't get back up. 7.62x25 is a powerful round, but if you can't deposit that energy in the bad guy and the bullet sails right through all that energy is for naught. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the round and I'll probably be buy a Tokarev in the near future, but you have to understand the where it fits in and it's limitations.
ONLY a .30 caliber bullet.
LOL
Like 30-06. and 7.62 nato. and 7.62x39. and 30-30. and .30 carbine. ETC ETC.
The Tok round is of considerably lower mass than the rounds you are quoting. Apples and oranges. HP is difficult to find in 7.62x25 and hence this high velocity FMJ round has a tendency to go right through tissue and leave a clean exit wound. For a self defense round, you want energy, frontal area, and ideally expansion in order to do maximal damage to an assailant so that he goes down and doesn't get back up. 7.62x25 is a powerful round, but if you can't deposit that energy in the bad guy and the bullet sails right through all that energy is for naught. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the round and I'll probably be buy a Tokarev in the near future, but you have to understand the where it fits in and it's limitations.
I was just commenting on the .30 caliber portion that's all.
All said in humor, no malice or ill will. Just a funny comment.
With that said..... if I ever WAS to carry a pistol chambered in tokarev, I am not worried about poking holes vs. giant wound tracts.
Over penetration is a problem, no doubt. But me, my wife, my dad, my friends, etc dying is a bigger problem in my book.
With the tokarev, I swear if the bullet doesn't stop 'em, the powder burn or muzzle flash will.
LOL.
I'd love to have a number of different, modern weapons, all chambered in tokarev.
I should start buying tokarev again, I think I'm under 1,000 rounds now.
/thread-jack.
Sorry.
All said in humor, no malice or ill will. Just a funny comment.
With that said..... if I ever WAS to carry a pistol chambered in tokarev, I am not worried about poking holes vs. giant wound tracts.
Over penetration is a problem, no doubt. But me, my wife, my dad, my friends, etc dying is a bigger problem in my book.
With the tokarev, I swear if the bullet doesn't stop 'em, the powder burn or muzzle flash will.
LOL.
I'd love to have a number of different, modern weapons, all chambered in tokarev.
I should start buying tokarev again, I think I'm under 1,000 rounds now.
/thread-jack.
Sorry.
OH... as an aside:
You can buy tokarev ammo, and pull the heads, for less than you can buy heads to reload .30 carbine in most cases.
You can buy tokarev ammo, and pull the heads, for less than you can buy heads to reload .30 carbine in most cases.
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