Top Tier Gas Again

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Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: hatt
They probably all do it unless they're locked in. At least the guy was honest about the practice.


Honest?? If he was honest, he would remove the labels saying "Top Tier" and any other signage.
Who said he had TT signage displayed at his store?



http://www.toptiergas.com/faqs/

Quote:
Can I have only my high volume gas stations be TT and not all of them?
No. A TOP TIER license agreement states that all stations under a brand name or franchise name must use the same detergency treat rate. The fuel marketer cannot select only certain service stations to use the TOP TIER detergency treat rate.
So the only question left is does Shell actually allow owners to buy gas from other sources. If so it's Shell's fault the TT standards aren't being met.
 
Well, this is the way I understand it.

#1 is "Gas is Gas"; by that I mean that Regular (or 87) differs from Premium in certain criteria that must be met, and the criteria are Federally mandated.

Also, bulk gas labeled "regular" is the same from station to station. This means the same tanker can fill a dozen different branded stations if it wants, provided the fuel goes into the bulk tank reserved for regular gas.

#2 is the additive package which is added to the bulk fuel (as above) and can be part of a franchise agreement. Top Tier Gas falls into this category.

Now, the amount of dilution of the additive package versus the bulk tank load is enormous. A litre (quart) of additive might treat a tanker full, it might even be a half litre (half quart). The additive is measured and applied to the bulk fuel fill, typically by the delivery driver at the time of delivery, not at the time the "regular" gas is pumped into the delivery tanker.

So a given tanker could service a no-name station with fuel that simply meets Federal standards, and it could service a Top Tier (for example) station by servicing with the same bulk fuel plus the additive package, which you can hold in one hand.

My advice is to fill at corporate stations rather than franchisee stations if there is any doubt as to whether you are getting the full additive package in the fuel. I think it's pretty much everyone's experience that you can usually tell what "kind" of station you're visiting ... shady looking operations probably are and legit looking operations probably are as well. Use your good judgement.

Also ...

I don't really want to find myself in the situation where I'm parked at the station watching to see if the driver is putting some bottle of stuff into the ground tank before he adds the load of fuel. The reason? You should never fill within about two hours of a tanker visit, and of course that means keep driving if you spot the tanker at the station. The process stirs up any sediment in the storage tank, which is fuel you don't want in your vehicle's tank. Keep driving, and if you see the tanker at a given regular time or day, adjust your fill schedule to miss him as much as possible.
 
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
Yesterday I talked to my local Shell gas station owner. He told me that he is not obligated to buy Shell gas. He too uses that independent fuel service on occasion for whom I called and they sell one gas. Offer no differing additive packs and only different octanes.

Is that his opinion or is that a fact? I know if that were to happen up here, he'd be finished as a Shell (or Esso or whatever) station in a very short period of time.

Do note that Top Tier certification requires that all stations of a certain brand, not just select stations, sell the Top Tier certified gasoline. So, we have one of two situations here. This station manager is breaking the rules and is being unethical, and should lose his station. Or, Shell isn't policing their system in the States very well, and should lose their Top Tier certification and then admit that their V-Power advertising is all a big hoax.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
Yesterday I talked to my local Shell gas station owner. He told me that he is not obligated to buy Shell gas. He too uses that independent fuel service on occasion for whom I called and they sell one gas. Offer no differing additive packs and only different octanes.

Is that his opinion or is that a fact? I know if that were to happen up here, he'd be finished as a Shell (or Esso or whatever) station in a very short period of time.

Do note that Top Tier certification requires that all stations of a certain brand, not just select stations, sell the Top Tier certified gasoline. So, we have one of two situations here. This station manager is breaking the rules and is being unethical, and should lose his station. Or, Shell isn't policing their system in the States very well, and should lose their Top Tier certification and then admit that their V-Power advertising is all a big hoax.


One thing I do know is that in the US and Canada, Shell uses their own formulation for the additive package (and always have, even before Top Tier came around).

It meets Top Tier, but is not exactly the same formula as other stations' Top Tier package, which is shared by a number of brands.

As for the tanker from "who knows where", it's common for a given refinery, for example, to service the local market regardless of which franchise the station is affiliated with. In that respect, this station owner is correct. The additive package that makes it Top Tier compliant is added at the time the fuel is pumped from the tanker to the station storage tank.

It does not matter about the bulk of the fuel, it's all the same from station to station. The very least expensive fuel in a given market is always just the standard gas without any additive package whatsoever. Which makes it OK to occasionally use clean gas from such a station (eg from a new station or one with new above ground tanks installed) because missing a top up with "basic" gas on occasion won't really cause any problems when you are normally filling with a good additive package fuel at the pump most of the time.
 
Exactly! If you allow your dealers to sell other fuels, why even have a dealership??

Quote:
So the only question left is does Shell actually allow owners to buy gas from other sources. If so it's Shell's fault the TT standards aren't being met.
 
So who here is contacting shell to inquire about this one?
I typically buy top tier when it is the same price...
in Chicago and southern wisconsin citgo,shell Mobil marathon are all the same price.
We r currently visiting in-laws in the Syracuse NY area. Top tier stations are $2.20-$2.35.
Meanwhile Bryne dairy stations have fuel for $1.99!
So needless to say I have been buying the cheap stuff.
Takes 30 minutes to get ANYWHERE out here so I have been using a tank in about 3 days... Sheeeesh.....
 
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From what I know is the guy use to be a Citgo station prior. We had several here
and they all switched to Shell. A few went back. They all still have the same generic fuel supplier who also is a branding agent. I called the fuel supplier and asked if they wholesale to farmers. Yes they do. I asked if I could get the same gas as Shell and they told me they sell one type of gas and in three octane grades. I could not pick Citgo, Shell, Sunoco etc.
Now the owner of the Shell station was not boasting that he was screwing over the customers. He merely explained he is a Shell station but not tied to selling Shell gasoline. Then he expanded.

Like the lady in the last thread that owned a Shell station and switched to a Citgo for a better deal. She said it was no hassle as she kept her old fuel supplier.



Quote:
Is that his opinion or is that a fact? I know if that were to happen up here, he'd be finished as a Shell (or Esso or whatever) station in a very short period of time.

Do note that Top Tier certification requires that all stations of a certain brand, not just select stations, sell the Top Tier certified gasoline. So, we have one of two situations here. This station manager is breaking the rules and is being unethical, and should lose his station. Or, Shell isn't policing their system in the States very well, and should lose their Top Tier certification and then admit that their V-Power advertising is all a big hoax.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Shell is TT. TT doesn't add cost but ensures you are getting a quality fuel. This thread is b s.
Thread isn't [censored]. Does Shell require station owners to buy Shell product? And of they do, how well do they police it?
 
Shell like the rest pays about $30K to be a TT seller- they claim that's the "testing fees" so no [censored] there.

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Shell is TT. TT doesn't add cost but ensures you are getting a quality fuel. This thread is b s.
 
6.What does the performance testing cost and who pays for it?
The performance testing costs will vary depending on the independent ISO 17025 certified lab that is hired to run the tests. The total cost of all testing can be in the range of $25,000 – $30,000. The detergent additive company pays for the testing; they select the treat rate that they think will pass the TOP TIER performance specification limits. Once they have a Pass, they inform their fuel marketing customers of the detergency treat rate required to be in the TOP TIER program. It is then up to the fuel marketers to decide if they want to treat their gasoline at the prescribed detergency treat rate.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Shell is TT. TT doesn't add cost but ensures you are getting a quality fuel. This thread is b s.

Doesn't seem like that is the case BRUH
 
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
Now the owner of the Shell station was not boasting that he was screwing over the customers. He merely explained he is a Shell station but not tied to selling Shell gasoline. Then he expanded.

Up here, in reference to your question about policing, the oil companies with whom I deal actually police this. They know how much a station sells and how much they sell them, and they audit that periodically. If the station is selling more gasoline then they're buying from the oil company, they are in monumental trouble. If it's a station owned by the oil company, someone is out of a job. If it's a franchise, well, the branded gas station owner becomes the independent gas station owner that he's trying to imitate, in very short order.

Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
Like the lady in the last thread that owned a Shell station and switched to a Citgo for a better deal. She said it was no hassle as she kept her old fuel supplier.

Then, what's the point? If they're using the same fuel supplier, where is the better deal? In any case, up here, one can buy bulk fuel from the majors, for example, if one is a farmer. Most of the bulk stations are independently run, but branded by one of the majors and sell the fuel from one of the majors, notably Imperial Oil (Esso), Petro-Canada, and Co-op, and, to a lesser extent, Husky and Shell.
 
Here in Cincinnati, the independent BP stations, many independent Shell stations, & a few Exxon stations, all get their fuel from the same jobber-Lykins Energy. If anyone believes they're all different additive packages, they're nuts!
 
I'm with you on this.
Now the fuel supplier lists Sunoco as one of its customers on their website.
However I always see a Sunoco truck delivering the gas to Sunoco and not the independents truck.
I think its just a bunch of fluff.
Get it cheap and if it runs good keep using it and throw in a quality gas treatment now and then.


Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Here in Cincinnati, the independent BP stations, many independent Shell stations, & a few Exxon stations, all get their fuel from the same jobber-Lykins Energy. If anyone believes they're all different additive packages, they're nuts!
 
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Here in Cincinnati, the independent BP stations, many independent Shell stations, & a few Exxon stations, all get their fuel from the same jobber-Lykins Energy. If anyone believes they're all different additive packages, they're nuts!


Really? Nuts?
 
If you have knowledge of Top Tier fraud and all you do is post it here on BITOG, you are assisting in burying fraud. What is the point of coming on here and saying things and then nothing coming from it...its a waste. At least report your findings to Shell in an email as a part of due diligence and if they don't look into it then they have proved their worth.

From what I have seen, most Top Tier stations rarely have it posted that they are indeed Top Tier. We have all seen this website: http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers/


In Canada, I compared found mention of Top Tier on these websites:

http://www.costco.ca/gasoline.html

http://www.chevron.ca/

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/139.aspx

http://tempo-canada.ca/wps/portal/crs/tempo/

http://www.shell.ca/en/products-services/shell-for-drivers/fuels.html

http://www.esso.ca/fuels ... buried on the site.

But no mention of Top Tier that I could find on this:

https://www.coopconnection.ca/wps/wcm/connect/c17db671-07e5-404d-a79b-4c90ab8cf603/PF+Item%23+2807311+-+Membership+Benefits.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

If they don't have it on the actual station, if they don't list on their website...where is the proud affiliation?


I didn't even know about Top Tier until a couple of years ago. I usually use a fuel system cleaner once a year or so and I have never had a fuel related issue as I always stick with the major brands. If I was going to choose a TT gas...it would be one that was showing that they were.
 
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Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
If you have knowledge of Top Tier fraud and all you do is post it here on BITOG, you are assisting in burying fraud. What is the point of coming on here and saying things and then nothing coming from it...its a waste. At least report your findings to Shell in an email as a part of due diligence and if they don't look into it then they have proved their worth.

If it were me, I'd be talking to Shell immediately. When my techs indicated that they were concerned about such shenanigans at a local Top Tier station they were servicing, I was in contact with their head office in Calgary in a hurry and they followed up in a hurry.

As for your Co-op mention, they were handing out leaflets at their stations left and right. Remember that Co-op is pretty old school, and their website reflects that.
wink.gif
 
I think much like we have had Industry reps ( Pennzoil, Gumount) on the site to do a Q&A it would be great to have a Gas rep, preferably a Top Tier gas company to do a Q&A to put this debate to rest.

I like many other are becoming skeptical about this whole Top Tier thing. There are only so many Fuel Terminals to supply a given market.
I'd be interested is seeing the Q&A if it could ever be arranged.
 
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