I prefer a timing belt.
Much easier to change, and less fatigue for the oil .
Much easier to change, and less fatigue for the oil .
Timing belt
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Originally Posted By: mpvue
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: scurvy
chains tend to be at the back of the engine facing the firewall in RWD applications!
Which ones? Chain is at the front in both the Ford 302 and the 4.6L. That covers a lot of RWD applications right there.
yeah, I was wondering what he's talking about also. RWD=engine facing front=chain in front.
So, if the chain is in the back, the transmission must be in front, driving the radiator fan
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: scurvy
chains tend to be at the back of the engine facing the firewall in RWD applications!
Which ones? Chain is at the front in both the Ford 302 and the 4.6L. That covers a lot of RWD applications right there.
yeah, I was wondering what he's talking about also. RWD=engine facing front=chain in front.
So, if the chain is in the back, the transmission must be in front, driving the radiator fan
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Which ones?
My mistake - it's only some RWD applications with PITA back-of-block chains/guides/sprockets what need replacing.
Plenty of FWD applications share this distinction of being a PITA to replace as well.
I'm not a chain guy, what can I say.
Which ones?
My mistake - it's only some RWD applications with PITA back-of-block chains/guides/sprockets what need replacing.
I'm not a chain guy, what can I say.
I want all of my engines to be a non-interference design, and be equipped with hydraulic valve lifters and timing chains.
Originally Posted By: scurvy
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Which ones?
My mistake - it's only some RWD applications with PITA back-of-block chains/guides/sprockets what need replacing.
Plenty of FWD applications share this distinction of being a PITA to replace as well.
I'm not a chain guy, what can I say.
again, I believe you are mistaken. please explain how a RWD application w/ have the timing chain at the rear, between the engine and transmission, and cite an example please.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Which ones?
My mistake - it's only some RWD applications with PITA back-of-block chains/guides/sprockets what need replacing.
I'm not a chain guy, what can I say.
again, I believe you are mistaken. please explain how a RWD application w/ have the timing chain at the rear, between the engine and transmission, and cite an example please.
Some Ford 4.0 use a rear chain as well as the front ones.
The longer the cam chains the more problematic they seem to become,i wish they had used a belt with mechanical rotating tensioners on early 2V Ford 5.4.
Those long thin chains and hydraulic tensioners are a PITA.
The longer the cam chains the more problematic they seem to become,i wish they had used a belt with mechanical rotating tensioners on early 2V Ford 5.4.
Those long thin chains and hydraulic tensioners are a PITA.
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Originally Posted By: mpvue
again, I believe you are mistaken. please explain how a RWD application w/ have the timing chain at the rear, between the engine and transmission, and cite an example please.
My Ranger has about 3 or 4 timing chains. One of them is on the back and drives the passenger side bank only.
I still prefer it over a belt driven engine. Ford got the bugs worked out of it and I'm confident it'll last over 200k. I paid about $750 last year to have the timing belt done on my Accord. I'd rather not have to deal with that again.
again, I believe you are mistaken. please explain how a RWD application w/ have the timing chain at the rear, between the engine and transmission, and cite an example please.
My Ranger has about 3 or 4 timing chains. One of them is on the back and drives the passenger side bank only.
I still prefer it over a belt driven engine. Ford got the bugs worked out of it and I'm confident it'll last over 200k. I paid about $750 last year to have the timing belt done on my Accord. I'd rather not have to deal with that again.
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Yeah the Ford 4.0L V6 SOHC has 3. It has one from the crankshaft to the jackshaft, and one in the front of the engine drives the driver side camshaft, another one on the rear drives the passenger side cam.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2026
Originally Posted By: scurvy
I always factor major service into the cost of a vehicle, as well as minor service that never comes up in the owner's manuals. Especially things like refreshing the suspension, transmission fluid changes (MTF is considered 'lifetime' by the OEM, not so by me), power steering fluid changes, brake fluid flushes, and so forth. If it has a fluid, it will get changed at least once every 50k miles.
On our TDIs, the TB is a 100k mile interval and is either $800 for a guru to do it or ~$350 for the parts kit. The first one I let my mechanic in Madison WI do; since then I've assisted with several and will DIY for the next ones (I have since acquired the Metalnerd tools, VCDS & Bentley manuals).
I honestly don't see why most folks here are so anti-timing belt. Belts have many advantages over chains: lighter, quieter, more dimensionally stable, cheaper, the mating parts almost never wear - and the biggest one, belts are DESIGNED to be replaced. Chains are rarely (if ever) designed to be replaced without major surgery. Plus chain replacement requires changing all the sprockets as they wear also, not so with a belt.
I'll always take a TB engine over a chain engine. In an ideal world we'd have mostly maintenance-free timing gears, but a TB system is a close second in my book.
Thanks for the morning chuckle. I had an 02 TDI, I did the timing belt on that pile. If you notice everything I own now has a chain. To Change the timing chain in any off my the cars I currently own is very easy compared to TDI. You "belts are designed to be changed" Okay if you say so, if pulling the motor mount and lifinting up the side of the motor is a normal I will buy that.
Lets have a contest. You change the belt in your TDI the same time I start changing the chain in any of my cars. Timing belts and associated parts are not always cheaper then doing a timing chain. A timing chain set, gasket, gears and chain is 26.99 for my truck The Buicks set is 119.00. The Trans Am's kit is 64.99, a double roller adjustable kit is 230.00 The Jetta I had? The belt was 54.99 plus the cost of the tensioner 170.00, which if you don't replace while you are in there is stupid.
Why is everything going to a chain? It is simple, cheap and requires less maintenance.
I always factor major service into the cost of a vehicle, as well as minor service that never comes up in the owner's manuals. Especially things like refreshing the suspension, transmission fluid changes (MTF is considered 'lifetime' by the OEM, not so by me), power steering fluid changes, brake fluid flushes, and so forth. If it has a fluid, it will get changed at least once every 50k miles.
On our TDIs, the TB is a 100k mile interval and is either $800 for a guru to do it or ~$350 for the parts kit. The first one I let my mechanic in Madison WI do; since then I've assisted with several and will DIY for the next ones (I have since acquired the Metalnerd tools, VCDS & Bentley manuals).
I honestly don't see why most folks here are so anti-timing belt. Belts have many advantages over chains: lighter, quieter, more dimensionally stable, cheaper, the mating parts almost never wear - and the biggest one, belts are DESIGNED to be replaced. Chains are rarely (if ever) designed to be replaced without major surgery. Plus chain replacement requires changing all the sprockets as they wear also, not so with a belt.
I'll always take a TB engine over a chain engine. In an ideal world we'd have mostly maintenance-free timing gears, but a TB system is a close second in my book.
Thanks for the morning chuckle. I had an 02 TDI, I did the timing belt on that pile. If you notice everything I own now has a chain. To Change the timing chain in any off my the cars I currently own is very easy compared to TDI. You "belts are designed to be changed" Okay if you say so, if pulling the motor mount and lifinting up the side of the motor is a normal I will buy that.
Lets have a contest. You change the belt in your TDI the same time I start changing the chain in any of my cars. Timing belts and associated parts are not always cheaper then doing a timing chain. A timing chain set, gasket, gears and chain is 26.99 for my truck The Buicks set is 119.00. The Trans Am's kit is 64.99, a double roller adjustable kit is 230.00 The Jetta I had? The belt was 54.99 plus the cost of the tensioner 170.00, which if you don't replace while you are in there is stupid.
Why is everything going to a chain? It is simple, cheap and requires less maintenance.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Thanks for the morning chuckle.
Glad you found it humorous.
To do a belt once every 100k miles is fine with me, even if it takes all day. My opinion is that a properly designed belt is advantageous over a properly designed chain for a timing system.
Again, my opinion of the belt's superiority is that they maintain timing better over their lifespan and generally are easier to replace. Chains stretch more over their lifetime, tend to be more difficult to replace and by the time they must be replaced the repair often far exceeds the value of the car.
In an ideal world I'd have timing gears with their own separate GL5 oiling system, but I'm fine with what I've got.
Thanks for the morning chuckle.
Glad you found it humorous.
To do a belt once every 100k miles is fine with me, even if it takes all day. My opinion is that a properly designed belt is advantageous over a properly designed chain for a timing system.
Again, my opinion of the belt's superiority is that they maintain timing better over their lifespan and generally are easier to replace. Chains stretch more over their lifetime, tend to be more difficult to replace and by the time they must be replaced the repair often far exceeds the value of the car.
In an ideal world I'd have timing gears with their own separate GL5 oiling system, but I'm fine with what I've got.
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Last October, I did the belt on our 2002 Civic. It was an awful, awful job.
I will never* purchase a car with a >6 hour job listed as scheduled maintenance. It's a sign that the car was designed for assembly and not maintenance. If we still have that Civic in 7 years/105,000 miles, it's getting sold.
Effectively, my rule above bans adding timing-belt cars to our household.
*I may make exceptions for truly awesome cars that have character.
I will never* purchase a car with a >6 hour job listed as scheduled maintenance. It's a sign that the car was designed for assembly and not maintenance. If we still have that Civic in 7 years/105,000 miles, it's getting sold.
Effectively, my rule above bans adding timing-belt cars to our household.
*I may make exceptions for truly awesome cars that have character.
With the purchase of a special tool the cost to change my T-belt was just over $100.00 after 10years of driving and it took me somewhere near 4hrs. The biggest pain was the T-belt cover; if they would have given me just another 1/4 inch....but all things considered not so bad.
I had to replace the T-chain on a Toyota M5 engine, my cost was over $1200.00 and than was almost 15years ago and I got parts at cost. It took considerably longer than 4hrs and busted many knuckles.
YMMV
I had to replace the T-chain on a Toyota M5 engine, my cost was over $1200.00 and than was almost 15years ago and I got parts at cost. It took considerably longer than 4hrs and busted many knuckles.
YMMV
Hmmmmm, maybe good ole pushrods aren't so bad afterall...
I realize that both designs have their advantages and disadvantages. That said, I'll take a chain any day.
I realize that both designs have their advantages and disadvantages. That said, I'll take a chain any day.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2026
Pushrods rule!
Really? Most of you guys are going to rule out a car because it needs a $500 service every 100k miles? It's something you get done once during the ownership of the car. Most people don't own it long enough to do it again.
The belt on my Accord was done at 204,000kms in 2005. Im at 282 now. Book says every 144,000kms. Not really that much of a hassle.
The belt on my Accord was done at 204,000kms in 2005. Im at 282 now. Book says every 144,000kms. Not really that much of a hassle.
Originally Posted By: silverrat
Really? Most of you guys are going to rule out a car because it needs a $500 service every 100k miles? It's something you get done once during the ownership of the car. Most people don't own it long enough to do it again.
The belt on my Accord was done at 204,000kms in 2005. Im at 282 now. Book says every 144,000kms. Not really that much of a hassle.
You're really only considering half of the issue. For me anyway, it's not so much the periodic replacement as it is that the chain engine is very unlikely to ever need such service at all (though obviously it can come up).
No, if THE perfect car I'd been waiting for all my life appeared, and it had a TB, I'd probably not reject it on the basis of the TB alone.
Really? Most of you guys are going to rule out a car because it needs a $500 service every 100k miles? It's something you get done once during the ownership of the car. Most people don't own it long enough to do it again.
The belt on my Accord was done at 204,000kms in 2005. Im at 282 now. Book says every 144,000kms. Not really that much of a hassle.
You're really only considering half of the issue. For me anyway, it's not so much the periodic replacement as it is that the chain engine is very unlikely to ever need such service at all (though obviously it can come up).
No, if THE perfect car I'd been waiting for all my life appeared, and it had a TB, I'd probably not reject it on the basis of the TB alone.
What if GM made replacing intake manifold gaskets a routine service?
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2026
I have had some 3.1 and 3800 cars, that didn't require a gasket, which in itself is easier to do with then a timing belt and both cost about the same.
The difference is you are guaranteed to have to do the timing built or risk catastrophic failure.
I just recently had to do my S/C Buick's intake gasket. It was about 100 bucks and 4 hours. First one I have had to do out of 3 3800 powered cars.
I didn't say I wouldn't buy a car with a timing belt. Just my personal experience is that timing chain cars are cheaper to maintain, because a chain generally last the life of the engine.
My 89 1 Ton is on the original chain and is pushing 195,000 miles and has been towing an 8500 lbs loaded 5th wheel for half of that.
I would not trust a timing belt to that.
500 bucks on most timing belts is doing the minimum and not at the dealer, I know when the Jetta's came up, it would have been 900 bucks at the local German shop or 1100 at the dealer. I did it myself.
The difference is you are guaranteed to have to do the timing built or risk catastrophic failure.
I just recently had to do my S/C Buick's intake gasket. It was about 100 bucks and 4 hours. First one I have had to do out of 3 3800 powered cars.
I didn't say I wouldn't buy a car with a timing belt. Just my personal experience is that timing chain cars are cheaper to maintain, because a chain generally last the life of the engine.
My 89 1 Ton is on the original chain and is pushing 195,000 miles and has been towing an 8500 lbs loaded 5th wheel for half of that.
I would not trust a timing belt to that.
500 bucks on most timing belts is doing the minimum and not at the dealer, I know when the Jetta's came up, it would have been 900 bucks at the local German shop or 1100 at the dealer. I did it myself.
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