Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
So TGMO stands for The Gold Motor Oil?

It's good oil for sure but to put it on a pedestal? No. Too many other good oilsout there in the 0w-20 flavor.

I don't think anything beats TGMO 0W-20 SN in the UOAs as far as I know. You can research around but to my knowledge TGMO 0W-20 SN gives the best UOAs by far.

Here is one example out of many out there:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-4th-...experiment.html

Regarding certifications, Toyota doesn't have any Toyota oil certification like GM's dexos etc. Instead, they trust ILSAC, which is the general oil certification system for US and Japan oil companies. On top of that, TGMO is a full synthetic that was custom-developed for Toyota and tested by Toyota; so, you are actually getting more than a simple certification stamp as with other oils.

 

[dblshock]

if you just drive back/forth to work, bought the 85hp base model, tires last 100k, do 3k OCI's and no police citations this is your oil.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: dblshock
motor probably rattles like an old wash machine on that 0/20...upgrade that, live a little, motor should sound best too.




My brother has a '15 Civic running 0w-20. The engine is so quiet you hardly know it's running.

 

[dblshock]

Can you upgrade this TGMO to 10/30?

 

[PimTac]

if you had the ability to purchase TGMO made by Idemitsu then you are looking at a great oil, comparable with Mazda Moly oil and even Eneos Sustina. In the US doesn't Mobil make TGMO? Europe would have another company perhaps.

In any case, the way companies change formulations to meet new specs or whatever means today's TGMO is most likely different than the one five years ago.

Again, it's good oil but so is Valvoline Synpower, Mobil1 AFE, Castrol Edge etc.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: dblshock
motor probably rattles like an old wash machine on that 0/20...upgrade that, live a little, motor should sound best too.

My brother has a '15 Civic running 0w-20. The engine is so quiet you hardly know it's running.

I thought the engines sounded better with thinner oil, too. Very thick oil (such as 15W-40) makes my engine hum on the freeway and also makes the idles more rough due to more friction. Thinner oil results in less friction and less friction results in less noise. This is espcially true for deep, humming or moaning noises I mentioned.

However, friction can also damp certain vibrations. So, certain metallic noise, such as valvetrain noise, that could be damped by high-friction, thick oils could actually be a bad thing, as your engine likes less friction, not more.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
if you had the ability to purchase TGMO made by Idemitsu then you are looking at a great oil, comparable with Mazda Moly oil and even Eneos Sustina. In the US doesn't Mobil make TGMO? Europe would have another company perhaps.

In any case, the way companies change formulations to meet new specs or whatever means today's TGMO is most likely different than the one five years ago.

Again, it's good oil but so is Valvoline Synpower, Mobil1 AFE, Castrol Edge etc.

Oh, no, not the Japanese (Idemitsu) version of TGMO... ExxonMobil co-owns Infineum, which makes the secret ingredient in the US version of TGMO 0W-20 SN: trinuclear moly.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
... In the US doesn't Mobil make TGMO? ...
Yes, but per Toyota's recipe. It's not the same as any Mobil product.

 

[PimTac]

What is so secret about tri-nuclear moly? It's just another form of the additive used by many oil manufacturers.

This is turning into a brand fanatic thread. Later.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
What is so secret about tri-nuclear moly? It's just another form of the additive used by many oil manufacturers.

This is turning into a brand fanatic thread. Later.

Trinuclear moly is only the best AW/EP/FM/AO additive that has ever been invented.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: PimTac
... In the US doesn't Mobil make TGMO? ...

Yes, but per Toyota's recipe. It's not the same as any Mobil product.

That's exactly so and hence M1 AFE/EP/AP 0W-20 SN has only about half the trinuclear moly TGMO 0W-20 SN has (116 ppm).

 

[WhizkidTN]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What is this latest spin about? Did I name the thread "Thinnest oil is the best?" I was only comparing 0W-20 and 0W-40 in an engine with typical bearing design and sliding rocker arms.


It's a natural discussion spin based on your UOA 'final verdict' that 0W-20 gives better wear protection than 0w-40.

Seems they have xW-20 down pretty good for normal/non-extreme use conditions since it's been around for many years now. But going even lower in motor oil viscosity (xW-16 and xW-8 are in the development stages) to gain ever increased fuel mileage is going to relying more on new types of anti-wear additives to make up for the loss of wear protection that was traditionally obtained from higher viscosity/film thickness. From what I'm reading, it sounds like developing even thinner than xW-20 oils that kept wear down to the current levels will be big challenge in the AW additive realm.


Best comment I've read over several pages of this thread. Kudos sir.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Oh, no, not the Japanese (Idemitsu) version of TGMO... ExxonMobil co-owns Infineum, which makes the secret ingredient in the US version of TGMO 0W-20 SN: trinuclear moly.


again, it's ASSumed to be trinuclear moly...no-one can state that for certain.

According to one advocate, Toyota provides Mobil with the additive package that Toyota made themselves.

There is so much speculation about this product based on assumptions and theories that NONE of us could no.

TGMO, it the things that we don't know, and can't know that make it what it is...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: PimTac
... In the US doesn't Mobil make TGMO? ...
Yes, but per Toyota's recipe. It's not the same as any Mobil product.


Why then, are the half dozen different TGMOs from different manufacturers so markedly different then ?

If it's Toyota's secret sauce and spices, why are they all not the same ?

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
... Why then, are the half dozen different TGMOs from different manufacturers so markedly different then ? ...
Of that half-dozen, how many are currently sold in the US as 0W-20?

 

[SonofJoe]

Sorry to rain on the parade but Moly is Moly.

Infineum's tri-nuclear Moly exists purely to escape prior Moly patents (an IP minefield is ever there was one!) and provide them with legitimate 'freedom to practice'. I got this straight from the horse's mouth. The same source also told me that this stuff is eye-wateringly expensive; even more so that the usually expensive standard Molys. Given that even the most top-tier oils have limits on their cost, it can be economically sensible to use more of a standard Moly than a lesser amount of TNM.

 

[PimTac]

"Why then, are the half dozen different TGMOs from different manufacturers so markedly different then ?"

"If it's Toyota's secret sauce and spices, why are they all not the same ?"



Good question. If I recall correctly from another thread long ago, a UOA performed on a Canadian customer was very different from the US reports. Petro Canada has the contract up there.

Who is to say that next year the US contract goes to ConocoPhillips or Chevron or whoever?

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Sorry to rain on the parade but Moly is Moly.

Infineum's tri-nuclear Moly exists purely to escape prior Moly patents (an IP minefield is ever there was one!) and provide them with legitimate 'freedom to practice'. I got this straight from the horse's mouth. The same source also told me that this stuff is eye-wateringly expensive; even more so that the usually expensive standard Molys. Given that even the most top-tier oils have limits on their cost, it can be economically sensible to use more of a standard Moly than a lesser amount of TNM.





This statement is spot on. Thanks SOJ. I have never seen any evidence that one form was better than another. Also, as of lately it seems oil manufacturers have been putting less moly in and most likely using other friction modifiers that do not show on analysis reports.

 

[SonofJoe]

Just to broaden this discussion out a bit...

This debate has largely focussed on the wear performance of a 0W20 vs a 0W40 with the implication that the 0W20 might be the better oil of the two. I'm sort of neutral on this point. I use 0W20 in my car (I think the factory fill is from Idemitsu but it will shortly get changed to Petronas 7000 0W20 when I take it into it's first service). I suspect if you look for difference, you'll find a difference but most oil formulators would take the view that these days, wear, relative to other things, isn't such a big deal on modern engines with half decent oils.

However if you look at other properties of the oil, I'd expect a 0W40 to be significantly WORSE than a 0W20. Although it depends on what VII you use, I might expect a 0W40 to contain about 70% more VII rubber than a 0W20. High levels of VII are not your best friend in any oil as they are the primary source of most piston deposits. What's more, the cold-flow properties of any VII are so poor that to accommodate that extra VII, you'll need to lighten up your base oil mix and take a hit on Noack. But that's just the 'direct' effect. To pass any piston cleanliness limited test, you'll generally need to add significantly more ashless dispersant to mitigate the effects of the extra VII. The cold-flow properties of ashless (particularly in a 0W-xx oil) are horrendous so you'll need to take a secondary (and almost certainly more severe) hit on Noack. And because your base oil mix is now far lighter, you're going to have to 'top-up' with a tad more VII to make up the viscometric deficit. And so it goes...

For most boring drivers (like me), that extra VII and higher Noack isn't such a big deal, but if you run hot and hard (or have a diesel) then it potentially is in all sorts of unwelcome ways. The risks of oil consumption, higher varnish, late onset oil ring sticking, hotter piston crowns all tick upwards in moving from a 0W20 to a 0W40. Yes you can mitigate these effects by using more polymerically efficient VIIs or subbing PAO for Group III but in both cases, you're talking about serious increases in the cost of manufacture.

Me, I'd avoid 0W40's like the plague. The only engine test program I ever failed was a 0W40 (admittedly it was the first one I'd ever run but it opened my eyes!). If I was specifically concerned about wear, I'd use an ACEA A3/B4 5W30 as there's often not a lot of difference HTHS-wise between that and a 0W40 and you don't get all that nasty rubber.

Finally, can I say that while I agree that not all drivers will see the fuel economy benefits of 0W20, I do. I'm consistently getting 70+ mpg out of my little car; something I've never ever seen in 40 years of driving.

 

[Shannow]

SonofJoe,
in this particular case, the US TGMO has a VI well over 200 (220 IIRC)...the Japanese OEMs used ultra high VIs, lots of VII, one of the lowest ratios of HTHS versus Newtonian HTHS (TSS)...It's a part of the mythical status of this miraculous oil (and a few others)

They did this in the period prior to the 16 and lower grades coming on line for warm-up fuel economy (their words), and from CATERHAM's testing to drop in HTHS pretty markedly (clearly not for improved big end function, so it must be for "the other reason").

The Japanese OEMs included moly, and if you have a look at the API Requirements, they (the Japanes OEMS) lobbied the API to drops the TEOST tests for the 0W20 grades (*)...aka want uber high VI, AND bucketloads of moly, our oils can't meet the TEOST that is required of every other oil grade in the API arsenal.

(*) so much for the argument that Toyotas run on standard API specs, when they and Honda lobbied to remove the deposit test from that and that grade only.