That may be your perception but it is not even close to the facts. Modern oils are better than ever.
Thicker oil equals more timing chain wear
- Thread starter Flyingdutchman
- Start date
That may be your perception but it is not even close to the facts. Modern oils are better than ever.
You know the back side of this argument. Hondas are manufactured in Japan. Been 5w-20 for 20 years in Japan. In Europe they concentrate on smog and the oil is formulated for that. So the OCI is different in Europe than Japan and US. Sure… one grade heavier is acceptable but the engine is not engineered to that viscosity. Modern engines are proven to last with 6 month OCI.
OVERKILL
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0W-xx, 5W-xx, 10W-xx...etc is the WINTER rating, it's simply the oil's ability to meet to performance specifications for Cold Cranking Simulation (drag) and being able to pump at a temperature 5C lower.
A 0w-40 is in the range for a 40-weight at 100C. A 5w-30 is in the range for a 30-weight (it's thinner) at 100C. In fact, the 0w-40 will be thicker at all temperatures until you get down closer to where the Winter rating is measured at which point there will be a crossover as the wax crystal formation in the 5w-30 exponentially increases its viscosity, while the 0w-40 doesn't experience that until at a lower temperature, or not at all, if it is blended with a PAO base.
How does thinner oil work better to get sludge off of parts?
Many are also proven to last with 1 year OCIs. Many vehicle manufacturers have a "xyz miles or 1 year, which ever comes first", statement about oil changes.
How long ago did they start 1 year OCI’s
Personally do not put miles on my car and like to do oil changes. All I can say is Mazda is 6 months.
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My 2002 Z06 owner's manual says one year or when the OLM says to change the oil ... which ever occurs first. Speced Mobil 1 5W-30 full synthetic. So I'd say about 20 years or more. Also, Ford has had a similar statement in the OM for many years (at least 7-8).
From the 2002 Vette OM.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yeah, my SRT has the time stipulation as well, I just ignore it and change based on the OLM. I'm using a premium Euro lube, there's not a chance in hell that it's "used up" when the calendar magically hits a certain date.
Liquids are generally considered incompressable aren't they. How would a thicker oil vs thinner oil change the pressure of the tensioner?
Thicker oil would result in more oil pressure from the pump. But keep in mind that all oil is pretty thick when cold, so during a cold start and the warm-up phase, there is more oil pressure going on in every engine.
I believe it started with the introduction of so called “Intelligent Oils” I.e. oils that can sense when the earth has made one complete revolution around the sun, at which point it decides to degrade with rapid loss of viscosity and TBN resulting in increased wear and contaminant dropout.
Max pressure will stay the same. Average oil pressure will increase thus increasing average pressure on the tensioner. Higher average pressure on the chain will result in faster material removal by any abrasive.
The elephant in the room is whether the lubricating properties of the higher viscosity lubricant is sufficient to offset this.
SAE Paper material I'm sure.
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I did nothing but LONG OCI's in my 2010 Focus. 15K-17.5K OCI's. No issues. Sold the car with 200K miles and my brother in law now has about 225K miles on it. The Mazda/Duratec burned up to a quart of oil every oil change. When I went to high grades the oil consumption went down to a quarter or half quart between changes. Less oil burning means my expensive catalytic converter(s) will last longer.
POINT: Why so much carbon with the Direct Injected engines that do not have port injectors like Ford or Toyota? The thin-ass oil seeps past the "low friction/low drag" valve stem seals onto the top of the intake valves. Just creating more issues to eek out a few tenth's of an MPG on a lab test bench is not worth the long term issues in my book.
POINT: Why so much carbon with the Direct Injected engines that do not have port injectors like Ford or Toyota? The thin-ass oil seeps past the "low friction/low drag" valve stem seals onto the top of the intake valves. Just creating more issues to eek out a few tenth's of an MPG on a lab test bench is not worth the long term issues in my book.
The carbon is from fuel soot. The same reason the oil turns black in a GDI just like a Diesel. It is much to small to be captured by a full flow oil filter. A centrifugal bypass filler such as used on some large diesels might be an idea.
The European GTDI engines generally run thicker oils like xW-40 or xW-50 synthetics and their tail pipes are black like my coffee. The carbon is from fuel soot, nothing to do with the engine oil.
The oil that gets on the top of the valves is mainly from crankcase blow by and the turbos. People are slapping cheap catch cans like the JLT, trying to catch it all but all they are doing is slowing down the PCV valve flow and condensing it into fluid, so they can show off the gunk and proudly proclaim they are saving their engines. Meanwhile the OEM designed the PCV system to be as short as possible so the hot blowby gases can be combusted without being condensed into liquids. The single catch cans neglect the blowby from the cleanside part of the PCV system, as well as the oil that comes out of the turbo's that pool in the intercooler and get sucked back into the intake manifold. The more complex Tracy Lewis systems are better as it is a comprehensive system, but probably won't catch the oil that comes out of the turbos.
On some engines, like older Mercedes V8s and the Ford 3V mod motor, timing chain and guide replacement is a fact of life. On others, only if they get noisy - Nissan being the example here.
I would imagine the biggest detriment to timing chain life is not changing your oil and/or excessive contamination clogging up the passages to the tensioner(Mercedes for years used a spring-loaded tensioner) or wearing down the rollers a chain. The tensioner is simply a hydraulic ram.
The OEMs are passing in timing chains as a “lifetime” item but on bikes, you are expected a replace a drive chain if the bushings are worn. Chains don’t “stretch” but the rollers get worn.
I would imagine the biggest detriment to timing chain life is not changing your oil and/or excessive contamination clogging up the passages to the tensioner(Mercedes for years used a spring-loaded tensioner) or wearing down the rollers a chain. The tensioner is simply a hydraulic ram.
The OEMs are passing in timing chains as a “lifetime” item but on bikes, you are expected a replace a drive chain if the bushings are worn. Chains don’t “stretch” but the rollers get worn.
How does thinner oil work better to get sludge off of parts?
The lower the viscosity, the higher the solvency. (usually)
So thinner oil can pay its bills better? Not sure what you're getting at. You think thinner oil cleans better? I'd think the cleaning ability of any oil would be based on the additives, not the viscosity.
Comparing base oils of similar polarity, the solvent power decreases as viscosity increases. Solvent power is interrelated with lubricity and additive response. The Hildebrand solubility theory tells us that anytime the average molecular volume increases (higher viscosity), the aniline point is increased and thus solvent power is decreased.
Solvent power and lubricity are interrelated as both require the presence of polar molecules. (Lubricity requires both polar and non-polar molecules to be present simultaneously) Lubricity, in the terms we're talking about, refers to the oil's cohesion to metal surfaces and slipperiness of the film on that surface. Therefore, lower viscosity base oils (of similar polarity) have greater solvent power for dissolving sludge and grime, while also having greater lubricity and thus surface cohesion, assuming the whole oil formula accounts for it. This also makes it better in terms of seal conditioning and dispersancy.
Looking at PAO base oils of different viscosity, just to give an idea...
Aniline point of PAO 2 = ~100°C
Aniline point of PAO 40 = ~160°C
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