Thick vs. Thin

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You'd love to criticize that but I guess I was only kidding:

Let's let him give the MC professor my regards :) He could even point Project Farm to persistant video demand in that area – at least until the day you feel funny and start explaining where and how your ideas were ...developed.

Or thinking of possible generic production of Exxon, SOPUS and other Hollywood farming. I'm sorry for that.
 
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You'd love to criticize that but I guess I was only kidding:

Or thinking of possible generic production of Exxon, SOPUS and other Hollywood farming. I'm sorry for that.
So where is this Project Farm video link showing the proof of all the claims?
 
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Not watching PF, don't know of any such video. I spoke of our video demand.

I've been kidding, made a joke (two times, basically one and the same).
Repeating a joke makes you become incredible²? I need to be more careful.
 
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Not watching PF, don't know of any such video. I spoke of our video demand.

I've been kidding, made a joke (two times, basically one and the same).
Repeating a joke makes you become incredible²? I need to be more careful.
Once in a great while I start to think that buried deep in those auto-translated posts there is some gem of an idea, but then again maybe not.
 
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Usually pressure drop along a (main) gallery won't be dominant in my view. Galleries in relation to what they're aimed at should be more like a pipeline, almost like a plenum – but this also means they'd be more like this path of least resistance when the oil has a choice of finally making it to and through a first or second bearing or making it farther through the gallery to a last or second last quasi competing bearing instead that's also awaiting. A certain pressure may be quickly seen at a first bearing, further pressurization there will depend on the pressure buildup along the gallery.
If an engine oiling system is designed correctly, then yes it will have a series of large "feed" galleries that will supply oil to all the smaller branches feeding off the main galleries which send oil to various locations withing the engine. What you are essentially describing above is how the oil volume would fill and flow throughout the oiling system when the system is initially void of oil. But if the system is already full of oil because the engine has been thoroughly ran, then it won't take much time to obtain pressure and flow through the system because of the PD pump.

I asked earlier if these studies you've referenced (only posting a table or two) cold started those engines with barely pumpable very thick oil at -20F when the engine was essentially "dry" (void of oil in the galleries), or if they were started with oil already in the galleries like what happens in real life on the streets? It is an important factor and can make a gigantic difference in the test results.

Before the same pressure level makes it into the fifth bearing the entrainment at the first bearing has become one path of less resistance in relation to the fifth, that's for only one sort of points of lubrication run from one gallery (don't know if the 56 cylinder could have seven or 14 such in parallel for just one sort of lubrication points ;-(
Meanwhile other lubrication points or else will have begun releasing blobs of the pudding aiding further delay of total and local pressure rises. Blobs onto a timing gear, relief off a pressure regulator,.. even cooling jets maybe where not controlled by a thermal pellet or so. The total is always a cold vulcano while warming up. Now, if I may come back to the heads, the pushrods and the lifters we started with: Regarding the rockers of course their pushods are rather narrow little galleries (or channels at least) (just to not even try to follow those other guys into the lifters feeding these gallods). Next to everything else in an engine will have tendencies of becoming paths of less resistance in relation to these rockers. That's what the tables are showing and Project Farms are filming for us.
A last camshaft bearing may also be worse off than a first main bearing. And so on. Not much statics for these first minutes.
Re: in the bold parts you are obviously talking about super cold "blobs" of oil ... oil that really may not be very pumpable. When all of this is being discussed and using examples where the pumpability of the oil is borderline (meaning on the "ragged edge"), then anything can be going on. Like mentioned earlier, if the oil can not get into the inlet side of the pump 100% effectively, then the pumping performance of the pump is on the "ragged edge" and it will not supply the same volume of oil on the outlet side, and if the pump pressure relief valved is also functioning then it really compounds the problem of supplying oil volume to the system.

The Oil G and Oil R in the one table you keep showing pumped well and produced pressure pretty quickly compared to the other oils in that test ... all those oils were tested at the same temperature (-20F) and with the same engine & pump. Those two oils preformed well at that temperature compared to the others because they were way more pumpable to the PD pump. The pump was not hampered to do what it was designed to do. That's the whole point of the PD pump, but when it can't do its job because the oil is on the ragged edge of pumpability then all bets are off. And again, if the pump pressure relief valve was operating in any of those tests, then that is going to obviously increase the time it takes to fill galleries and to produce oil pressure. So the bottom line is there are way too many unknown factors involved in those tests that's not being shown. But if you want to go snip those areas of the reports showing one way or the other if galleries were empty or filled before cold starting, and if the pressure relief was operating or not, then that would good info to fill in missing info.
 
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FWIW I just did an oil change with 0w40 while it was 20 degrees outside. The oil poured as easily as vegetable oil at room temperature and the engine started right up this morning no problems and no noise. I think as long as you use the correct winter grade for your temps, you can probably use whatever you want and be fine.
 
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I made up a few quick and dirty ideas for your galleries down in the block – and I didn't make any bold. The main point there was that a first (in time more than in space) partial flow getting going, for example shearing in entrainment and warming the environment somewhere in the branched, the dendritic... system (whatever the black box, providing the PD like performance resembling real world pumping, may be hiding): will be a form of relief occurring at say 12.84 psig. Aiding further delay for the remaining lubrication points.

Next in repetition: Whatever the pressure relief action, 40 psig were not the problem. We spoke about it although that's been about down in a gallery of a pushrod engine. The links are also there, not just the tables, turn the page and read on if you're developing the interest now.

But I'm not that good at repeating repetition over and over again to follow in ever more ignorant ping pong.

I had mentioned pushrods and lifters, found table 3 for pushrod testing and shared the table and link. These people extended on the question of suction side pumpability – just consider reading as many of the 14 pages as you please, please. The pic itself of course made sufficiently clear what they deemed statistically relevant or not. And that table 3 with its paragraph was about pressure side pumpability. Skim the rest and find them mentioning "high" shear viscosity ;-)
Let me try the bold myself: You're not going to tell me that in two minutes of noise to 40 psig there'd be cavitation / vacuum / air binding for their typical five minutes of dry rocking behind the pushrods and that they, although fully aware of pump screens and whistles, didn't get the idea.

40 psig is real world. Designed pressure relief, bypass and more additional designed pressure relief are real world.
Your ideas of pressure missing at the gallery to explain the vast additional delay between there and up in the rock house are in no way supported by the findings. Check it out for yourself.

Thanks to the previous thread you need not even revolve around the -20°F at all if you don't want to: The -15°C didn't result in the same delays of course but still result in an easy +100% recorded for rocker arms. 15W-40 in -15°C according to traditional positive displacement & J300 threads on here is correct oil choice and probably not on any ragged edge.
Either way, again the delay is so much more pronounced in some areas than in others. Seven- to tenfold at the rocker shafts. The Cummins may not even have used hollow pushrods but a gallery to the rockers, that one I should look up.

That's dendritics, ramifications, branches, Ockhams Rasiermesser and rock out.



pump17.gif



I shall really see where I can find fresh and independent data for you while you're developing your interest in exploring what you've been shown. Ah, the maieutics...
 
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Next in repetition: Whatever the pressure relief action, 40 psig were not the problem. We spoke about it although that's been about down in a gallery of a pushrod engine. The links are also there, not just the tables, turn the page and read on if you're developing the interest now.
I don't have a copy of the paper, and if I recall the link you gave to it requires an account or maybe payment of some kind to see the whole paper ... so I don't think I'll be seeing the whole paper.

I had mentioned pushrods and lifters, found table 3 for pushrod testing and shared the table and link. These people extended on the question of suction side pumpability – just consider reading as many of the 14 pages as you please, please. The pic itself of course made sufficiently clear what they deemed statistically relevant or not. And that table 3 with its paragraph was about pressure side pumpability. Skim the rest and find them mentioning "high" shear viscosity ;-)
Let me try the bold myself: You're not going to tell me that in two minutes of noise to 40 psig there'd be cavitation / vacuum / air binding for their typical five minutes of dry rocking behind the pushrods and that they, although fully aware of pump screens and whistles, didn't get the idea.
Again ... I don't have access to the full paper. As far as engine noises ... who knows what noise may develop (if any) and how loud they would be in order to be heard over other normal noises of the engine running. Any noises would be dependent on the specific motor design. I think you could have lack of oil pumpability on the pump inlet and not have any noticeable noises. Any lack of oil pumpability is going to effect how the oiling system builds pressure because it's essentially degrading the performance of the PD pump - ie, cut back oil volume output.

Like I've asked before ... did the report say the pump pressure relief valve never opened during the testing? Did they say the oil galleries where filled or not filled with oil before the cold starts? Without that being specified as part of the test conditions then we really don't know what we're looking at in those tables and graphs. If the pump pressure relief opened, and/or all or some of the galleries were empty upon initial cold start-up, then that can really contribute to the extended time to get oil pressure deep inside the engine.

40 psig is real world. Designed pressure relief, bypass and more additional designed pressure relief are real world.
Your ideas of pressure missing at the gallery to explain the vast additional delay between there and up in the rock house are in no way supported by the findings. Check it out for yourself.
How is it not supported? I don't see where they specify that the pump relief valve didn't open or not, or that the galleries were full of oil or not before the start-up.

If the PD pump went into pressure relief to some degree right off the bat, then the pump output flow will be cut back and that would naturally cause the galleries to fill up slower, and therefore take more time to build up oil pressure. That's why I keep asking about the pressure relief and the gallery fill state before start-up ... both of those factors are important to know to fully understand the test data.

Thanks to the previous thread you need not even revolve around the -20°F at all if you don't want to: The -15°C didn't result in the same delays of course but still result in an easy +100% recorded for rocker arms. 15W-40 in -15°C according to traditional positive displacement & J300 threads on here is correct oil choice and probably not on any ragged edge.
Either way, again the delay is so much more pronounced in some areas than in others. Seven- to tenfold at the rocker shafts. The Cummins may not even have used hollow pushrods but a gallery to the rockers, that one I should look up.


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Same response for this ^^^. It has to be proven one way or the other if the PD pump pressure relief was opening or not, and if all or some of the galleries were full or empty before start-up. Otherwise, this data can't be deciphered properly. What was said in the paper regarding these two test factors?
 
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FWIW I just did an oil change with 0w40 while it was 20 degrees outside. The oil poured as easily as vegetable oil at room temperature and the engine started right up this morning no problems and no noise. I think as long as you use the correct winter grade for your temps, you can probably use whatever you want and be fine.
Need clarification. The oil that drained out flowed like vegetable oil at room temp or new oil that you poured in? Also, more importantly what the oil also at 20 degrees or was it simply 20 degrees outside. It could be -20 but if the oil was stored inside your home before doing the oil change, it would still be near room temp.
 
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Just gonna keep running my 0w20 Redline. Flows better than just about anything and is still thicker than some 5w30's. Love the fear mongering campaign by Valvoline. I'd be more afraid to run their oil than anything else.
 
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Good morning Vietnam! Correct, you'd need to register with an e-mail address, I shall try tro show you later behind the curtain, don't want to really plaster with more pics, the scans are what the login would get you...

Listen, the relief ain't important when we're not after judging PDP magic – which we aren't. The engine is what it is and between oils it got flushed, motored, then cooled. Why would they try to motor the thing around after blowing the dendritics dry between measurements? For special repeatability?
For your inspired peer review log in or don't but don't expect me to chase ideas of emergency exits for you.

Tell me instead: For the 5W-40 in -15°C you'd make its MRV of 13000 cP how much lower?
Will this fiction help us to explain the still sixfold delay for the rocker shaft between 34 s and 5.5s (main gallery)? Similar with the 10W-30 (8x).?
Or is your explanation getting lost somewhere between these six oils?
(In the Cummins that might not even send through hollow pushrods – okay, that I should look up for you.)

Yes, many factors all the time, things get stacked, even times along galleries and pushrods get stacked. Ramifications for molecules are mere offers: A main bearing entrainment or blob somewhere now or a rocker arm in 48 seconds to five or six minutes if need be. Many will just choose the main bearing entrainment where it's already getting warmer instead of lining up for the cold rest of the vulcano.
Get over it. PD shoving is looking backwards at the pump characteristics but never looking forward at the lubrication. One for all via one common flange means an input only to the total while no control whatsoever is possible over the balance, the ratios, the bias, the mobilé, the differentiation... The fundamental principle is shown.
A multiple elements pump, a dedicated oil metering pump that had six plungers like mine in the rotary, could serve your ideas for six main branches in subtotals or individual points of lubrication but PD as such is usually irrelevant for answers on BITOG. Balances are free, ratios change.


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Germany ...owns my passport. So, you should definitely be careful to not be seen with me for a bigger number of reasons than you may have expected 🤪
 
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Is that paper not about gelation of oils? That was an isue in the early 80s, where engine oils turned to a gel like state way above the pour point of the oil, and the cold cranking temperatures. I've seen them mention the gelation index in some of the pictures you shared.
 
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Is that paper not about gelation of oils? That was an isue in the early 80s, where engine oils turned to a gel like state way above the pour point of the oil, and the cold cranking temperatures. I've seen them mention the gelation index in some of the pictures you shared.


I think that was a issue with Quaker State and for a short period of time. I witnessed it firsthand as a friend had to drop the pan and scrape it out with a putty knife.

Redline too. 😜
 
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Is that paper not about gelation of oils? That was an isue in the early 80s, where engine oils turned to a gel like state way above the pour point of the oil, and the cold cranking temperatures. I've seen them mention the gelation index in some of the pictures you shared.
And led to a revision of SAE J300 to more accurately reflect cold-weather starting. The problem required a specific circumstance of temperatures but it did happen.
 
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You're good again, Jetronic! You know, I can never ask MolaKule anything myself. MolaKule, you know that I've never really been after you, right? Do tell me where I'm wrong beyond being unintelligable! Pleeease. BITOG needs it.

In this case I better hurry now: ZeeO, pics are in your letter box, but there'd been a second article with slightly better description of the M11 testing with the 5W-40 and 10W-30 that I forgot to attach.


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Does anyone know if the auto makers are legally required to recommend only the oil which was used during certification?
 
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