Thick or Thin,I'm confused?????

[Ken2]

Other things remaining equal, higher viscosity oil has higher film strength.

Other things never remain equal. PAO base oil, like Mobil 1, has higher film strength than petro base oil. Thus a 5W-20 PAO oil might lube as well as a 5w30 conventional oil. Ford and Honda approved 5W-20 has very tough specs...far tougher than a GF-4 5w30. That matters more than just the viscosity. The quality of the petro base oil is just part of the mix...5w30 might have better base oil than 10w30, or it might not, just have more viscosity index improvers that will soon shear. It depends on what quality product the oil maker wanted to put out.

The quality (cost) of the additive package is critical. Does Mobil 1 use a better quality add pack than, say, Wolf's Head or SuperTech or other cheap oil, still fully certified? Very likely.

You can not talk about just one attribute of oil unless all other properties of the oil are kept in mind. Talking about just viscosity is just hot air.


Ken

 

[Cicero]

quote:

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Originally posted by Whimsey:

quote:

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Originally posted by 1sttruck:
unlike the Trotskyites

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... call us fascists

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NO, NO. Hommie don't play that game.

"Imposing ideas or views" is not a characteristic of any particular political ideology, IMHO, but more a tactic often employed by authoritarian, theocratic, totalitarian systems. Add to that gangster like terrorists organizations out to take over civilized societies.
I think "thin skinned oil fanatics" or "ZDDP zealots" or "coolant-aid drinking dumbies" or "thick headed oil eaters" or something like that would be better zingers to throw at each other. Commies and Fascist are pretty much different sides of the same coin. I don't think either of you really meant any "insult" so lets move on.

Alright! Break! To your corners, and come out fighting like the proper gentlemen you both are.

BTW, thinner had better be better cause I'm using it in my Accord! And it creeps me out.

UOA, UOA, UOA.........chant along with me on this one....UOA, UOA....the only salvation.

 

[Patman]

Well the one thing I know is that based on my driving style and the oil temps my car shows, GC 0w30 is working extremely well in my LS1 Corvette. I've never seen a used oil analysis with lower wear numbers.

If you see higher oil temps than me (I typically see oil in the 192-208F range-depending on outside temp) then you might need something thicker like Mobil 1 0w40. It pays to do a used oil analysis to find out what works best. I do know the LS1 does not seem to like the thinner oils, so don't go below 11 cst at 100c if you drive the car hard.

 

[kevm14]

quote:

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Originally posted by Whimsey:
A college education today is woefully lacking. The leftists teaching in colleges today can't even get their fellow leftists straight

Whimsey

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That's alright. When these quasi-commies out of their liberal arts colleges hit the real world, they'll be in for a shock. It may take a year, or 5, but reality will eventually set in. Things like this are typically self-correcting.

 

[Gary Allan]

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hat's alright. When these quasi-commies out of their liberal arts colleges hit the real world, they'll be in for a shock. It may take a year, or 5, but reality will eventually set in. Things like this are typically self-correcting.

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Former teacher during the Vietnam War. A CO ..protested..abstained.. Now works for the CIA. The "don't trust anyone over 30" turns into "Don't trust anyone under 30".

Sorry

we now return to your normally scheduled oil discussion.

 

[Nosmo King]

First off I drive a European car and use *w-40 as recommended and am a fascist.

In the last 20 years, the motors used by this mmanufacterer ( VW ) have increased their engine clearances not decreased , an often used argument for
thin oils.
This increased clearances are in the ring pack that now sits higher on the pistons and is now far more suceptable to heat and ring gumming.Now they also burn more oil.

Could the fact that oil is now being used for additional chores in the engine be why some manufacturers are recomeding 'thin'.
Todays cars have chains whose correct tension are controlled by oil. Variable valve timing is also oil related and don't forget all the auto valve lifters that need clean thin oil from the minute the motor starts.

 

[lewk]

one would think growm men,couldn't generate such interest in a topic that is clearly a matter of choice.this is a spin on the modern day apple or windows camp, or perhaps a migration from dos to windows. which is better? better for whom!your woman, thick or thin? she's your mate, good or bad.you chose her.(partial truth).ahh, the multi- faceted oil industry, a plethora of choices. thin oil is better if thats what you choose. thick oil is better if thats what you choose. brand x,y,or z is better if you are satisfied with it. these arguments for scientific(voa&uoa)vs. anecdotal(ostensible),evidence related to a bottle of oil? these vehicle will be long gone. this site will entertain the same or similar crowd. the big oil companies will continue to pimp our legislators, and we will be back at square one. you will stiil have your wife though. now is thin or thick better? can you beleive it.our problem is now solved. me 10w30 at oci,top off 15w40

 

[Big John]

quote:

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Originally posted by TallPaul:
Too thick: 20w50
Too thin: 5w20
Everything else in between is permissible.

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That puts her in perspective TP thanks for that...I am gonna used oil analysis the 5w30 when it comes out and then run the 10w40 and used oil analysis that and see which my truck likes better...Thanks all...

 

[Cicero]

Oil temperature and oil pressure gauges. How would one "use" or "read" these to help decide if indeed a proper oil is in one's engine + driving style+ climate + etc.

Would these help in knowing an oil is too thick or too thin?

 

[JohnnyO]

I think that with modern oils, thick is not necessarily good, thin is not necessarily bad, and vice versa.
Use what weight the manual says to use in Mobil 1 and party on.

 

[Ugly3]

quote:

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Originally posted by Big John:

quote:

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Originally posted by TallPaul:
Too thick: 20w50
Too thin: 5w20
Everything else in between is permissible.

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That puts her in perspective TP thanks for that...I am gonna used oil analysis the 5w30 when it comes out and then run the 10w40 and used oil analysis that and see which my truck likes better...Thanks all...

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What aspect of the used oil analysis will you use to determine that your truck "likes" a particular viscosity?

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Audi Junkie:

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The viscosity of the oil has to meet the requirements of the engine

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This statment is not as clear-cut as it seems.

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Fair statement. I was thinking more along the lines of hiring a professional oil analyst like Terry, to help fit an oil to your engine/environment/use. It also may be the case that some engine designs are more "oil viscosity neutral" than others and/or short OCI masks mismatches. Again, that's where professional help clues you in.

 

[radiometer]

Samples of one aren't statistically significant.
(The above by Mickey_M

Very true, sir. I studied statistics in my accounting classes. While it is not statistically significant it is personally significant to me in my personal use and experience. Was your experience with your use of 10w30 while the dealer used 10W-40 more valuable than my personal experience, which differs significantly from that of some others? I believe you got the good results you wanted and I take that to be excellent. I do it differently and get the results I want and I also take that to be excellent. Why some peoples' cars seem to bog down on 15w40 and mine doesn't even notice it I don't know. However, I'm still in a learning curve.

I do value your input, as you are one of a very small handful on this board that really know a good bit about lubrication. I try to learn from that rather small handful. Your comments are always fine with me.

 

[Big John]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:

quote:

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Originally posted by Big John:

quote:

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Originally posted by TallPaul:
Too thick: 20w50
Too thin: 5w20
Everything else in between is permissible.

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That puts her in perspective TP thanks for that...I am gonna used oil analysis the 5w30 when it comes out and then run the 10w40 and used oil analysis that and see which my truck likes better...Thanks all...

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What aspect of the used oil analysis will you use to determine that your truck "likes" a particular viscosity?

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I don't know,I was hoping all you would help with that.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Big John - yes at times we all get "carried away" with the detail

This engine in this country was a source of problems and for a variety of reasons - one may have been the lubricant specified/used

I have some knowledge of the issues and I can tell you that the lubricant one can be solved by using a 0w-40 or 5w-40 A3/B3 Porsche Approved synthetic. The oil's Brand matters very little if any at all and there are a number that have Porsche's Approval (not "meets" or "recommended") readily available.
The other alternative is to use a 5w-40 "mixed fleet" synthetic HDEO - these will do the job splendidly

used oil analysis are unlikely to be conclusive as to best oil Brand against engine model but they will tell you about the oil's condition if used intelligently and assist you in setting your OCI

Regards
Doug

[ February 03, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[AEHaas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cicero:
Oil temperature and oil pressure gauges. How would one "use" or "read" these to help decide if indeed a proper oil is in one's engine + driving style+ climate + etc.

Would these help in knowing an oil is too thick or too thin?

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Great questions. One of the things my chapters were designed to teach is that you cannot tell exactly what the oil is in that jar just by the numbers on the label. Another thing was that you can use the car manual as a starting place but really need to experiment with different oils and weights to see what is best for your specific application.

Some drivers go great distances every time they get in the car. In this area most people drive less than 15 - 20 minutes and never get out of the start-up driving period where most of the wear would then occur.

If you had an oil gauge you would see that oil heats up much slower than the water in your cooling system. For my Ferrari and my wife’s Lamborghini the water is up to 180 F after 5 minutes whereas the oil takes 15 - 20 minutes to fully warm up to 185 F. Here the oil temperature is telling you how long it really takes to warm up the oil.

One way of telling where friction comes into play is watching your oil temperature. An automotive and turbine engineer told me that a car or even transmission can be optimized by just watching the temperature. For example, you can take a single brand of oil and just keep trying thinner and thinner oils in the engine. The temperature of the oil and bearings can be monitored. At some point an oil will be too thin. The temperatures will then start to go up. This is sometimes done with just base oils and not with additives. It can be tested several different ways and no way is thought to be the Only or Superior way. Today's additives allow for thinner oils with less friction and wear.

You may then choose the oil slightly thicker than the thinnest that gave the lowest temperature. This gives some cushion. But test using realistic operation.

Ferrari gives still another way to gauge what oil to use. They have several wt grades in the manual but they state that you should get 75 PSI at 6,000 RPM. This is a pressure based solution. It is hard to actually measure flow so we use pressure to indicate the flow until the oil relief pressure valve is reached. As My chapter 109 and 201 show, the optimum flow is with approximately 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM of the engine. The Ferrari manual is very close to this.

If you are heavy on the foot or drive at very high speeds say on the Autobahn, then your oil temperatures would be high and the pressure may only be 60 PSI at 6,000 RPM in your Ferrari. Then you should move to a thicker oil. Again, you have to look at real data, not oil jar labels, then retest.

One thing I have found in all my performance cars is that the oil temperature does not vary with ambient temperature. If anything, the oil runs a little hotter in the winter. It makes sense as the wheel bearing, transmission, universal joint and other air cooled parts are moving with cooler, thicker lubricants. This increases engine load.

Use all your senses. Both of my high revving car engines and in particular the Murcielago got much quieter changing oil brands and going to thinner oils. Both had reductions in engine oil temperature. Both start easier it seems. Both get better gas milage. The Ferrari had a good UOA. I am satisfied that the oils I am using are doing what I want them to do.

aehaas

[ February 03, 2005, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: AEHaas ]

 

[sprintman]

Well I reckon Americans and Canadians worry to much about viscosity. I've run 5W30 to 25W70 and everything in between in my Mazda turbo and it really doesn't matter as long as it's got oil and it's reasonably clean. Nearly 220,000kms up after I purchased it with 120,000kms on it and after being neglected maintenance wise. I expect it will go 400,000kms plus without a rebuild. The quality of fuel you put in the tank is far more important than the viscosity of oil in the sump.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Sprintman - well said!
Or, she'll be right mate!!!

We sometimes lose the plot at the detail level

Kind regards
Doug

 

[AEHaas]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
The quality of fuel you put in the tank is far more important than the viscosity of oil in the sump.

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ASTM specifies air temperature, humidity and the exact fuel for testing. Fuel is know to be an independent predictor of engine wear.

aehaas

 

[Audi Junkie]

quote:

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quote:
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Why then is, for instance, Audi able to make the switch to a product like SLX II with LOW HTHS --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They can do it because the lubrication system and cams have been designed to be used with low HTHS oil.

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To be more specific, what about the bottom-end crank bearings? They seem to be lubed fine by SLX II, same ones as in my "normal" engine. Top-end seem lubed well too on the Mobil Drive Clean 5w30 I am using temporarily. Again, the manual advises against hard running on 5w30, but that probally is targeted at 5w30 conventional with a low HT/HS. Certianly there are synthetic 5w30s that you could run hard on.