"The Real Problem with the American Auto Industry"

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
BMW Proudly built in the USA by robots


Like everyone else, but somebody must service/maintain those robots.

In any case the automobile industry as a whole is in trouble. The writing was on the wall when car loans with terms of over 5 years appeared. The younger buyer of today is more likely to lease and it's one short jump to on-demand rental. BMW for example is market testing a monthly rental program where different tiers give you access to a different array of vehicles. IIRC Hyundai/Kia is toying with the same thing. Subscription services are already becoming the norm with some features.

One other thing are state franchise laws. In the US it's very difficult for a manufacturer to cull the herd of dealerships, never mind that fact that they MUST sell vehicles via dealerships. Now that is 100% Grade A American BS.


I agree but the "built in USA by robots" comment about BMW is laughable.
Its no different then any other automaker, the one with the best technology and product wins and why the South Carolina plant is BMWs largest plant in the world and largest exporter of vehicles in the entire USA.
If the Amercian Companies could invest in those "robots" like that others, they wouldnt be almost out of business and would have a better product. However the Americans have caught up and have just as many "robots" but it was the unions of decades past that prevented the "robots" that almost put them out of business many times.



Yep, it becomes a political rather than a market decision. To be fair the same occurs in countries such a Germany. For example VW Group is partly owned by the german state of Lower Saxony.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by edyvw

Of course it is taxation, roads, maintenance do not pay for itself. That is why American roads are somewhere on par with Gambia's.


Note to readers:

As a world traveler, the above statement is utterly incorrect. In fact, the USA is #9 in road quality of all 196 countries worldwide.



Or is it 14?

https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/roads_quality/

Or perhaps 10?

http://reports.weforum.org/pdf/gci-2017-2018-scorecard/WEF_GCI_2017_2018_Scorecard_EOSQ057.pdf

 

[Mr Nice]

I have a Chevy Equinox for my company vehicle.

Its a decent car for the money but I would never consider buying a Chevy SUV for my personal vehicle.

 

[javacontour]

They tried the Mondeo here in the 1990s. The Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique was a Mondeo. Both on the CDW-27 platform. The "new" Cougar (FWD) was also based on that platform.

It just didn't sell.

Sure, a few of we enthusiasts bought it. The SVT version, which I think equates to the ST250 (IIRC) version of that car.

However, Ford was putting incentives on the Taurus, trying to outsell Camry/Accord. American shoppers seem to value the most pounds of car / dollar, so it was cheaper to buy a Taurus than a Contour.

The Contour experiment ran from 1995-2000. By then the Focus was coming and the Contour disappeared.

Great handling cars. We never got a diesel version. We got the 2.0L Zetec and the 2.5L Duratec, bumped up to 195-200hp in the SVT version depending on the year of sale.

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Kurtatron
This stuff does make me nervous, working in the motor city and all. I think it would be sad to see the big 3 go under, considering their long history. I hope they don't, but I do agree that they need to get their act together and make solid cars. Ford was just starting to get somewhere with the fusion. Not to mention the reliability reports of the panther platform. A shame they are not continuing that opportunity. I am saving my pennies for the next downturn, just in case I lose my job.

Some time ago, before I landed to the New World, I was test driver for some small car magazine in Europe.
Anyway, we had on a test this Ford Mondeo equipped with 2.2 TDCI engine with 185hp and I believe some 270-280lb-ft of torque. Great handling, 6-speed MT. So I was pushing that sucker to some 240km/h and I saw far behind me a car fallowing me, but cannot catch up. Anyway at tool booth that car catches up and then I saw red/blue flashing lights behind windshield. It was police interceptor VW GTI. So this Ford had all markings that it is Ford test vehicle etc. Police officer says to me: dude, you are not in trouble. Just wanna know what the [censored] is under that hood? I am trying to catch up with you last 20km.
That vehicle never made to the US. Ford kept it in Europe.
Current Fusion is newer generation of that Mondeo, but again, we do not get all the goodies that are available in Europe. Mondeo in Europe has reputation of great handling vehicle for decent price. Ford can do it. But, I really cannot figure out some decision making process and marketing.

 

[Kurtatron]

I have posted this before, but just because it isn't made in America doesn't mean that it doesn't support American jobs and the flow of capital. But I do agree that these companies should not be outsourcing so many jobs. After taking so much taxpayer money, I think it is in their better interest to maintain some sort of loyalty to the American taxpayer. If you take away the jobs of American citizens, how can they afford your product anyways?

https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/foreign-cars-made-in-america-where-does-the-money-go.html

Another thing that bothers me is looking at CEO salary of American companies vs Japanese. It's something like $20 million per year for GM and $4 million for Toyota. What's up with that?

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by 4WD
What is your point ? ... could not care less what you drive or think of what I drive ...




Point is quite apparent. .

"American" companies... In name only... Jobs sent elsewhere... Like countries north and south of us and in other continents. That is a problem. We used to make all kinds of products.

I'd rather give my business to say East Penn because they actually employ people HERE. Versus say JC who employs people from other places...

If I am going to supposedly buy "US" products... At least I want them actually made here. There's a novel concept.

 

[Andrew1972]

In a sentence the problem is basing your entire business plan on selling a ton of full size pickups and certain SUVs at massive profit. The rest of models is darts and legacy killing ya.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by edyvw

Of course it is taxation, roads, maintenance do not pay for itself. That is why American roads are somewhere on par with Gambia's.


Note to readers:

As a world traveler, the above statement is utterly incorrect. In fact, the USA is #9 in road quality of all 196 countries worldwide.

What is measurement of road quality? Go to any EU country and their HWY system is of much higher quality.
But, let's say someone calculated number of potholes in countries and took into consideration all other variables, we are still largest economy in the world, but have mediocre roads.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Kurtatron
I have posted this before, but just because it isn't made in America doesn't mean that it doesn't support American jobs and the flow of capital. But I do agree that these companies should not be outsourcing so many jobs. After taking so much taxpayer money, I think it is in their better interest to maintain some sort of loyalty to the American taxpayer. If you take away the jobs of American citizens, how can they afford your product anyways?

https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/foreign-cars-made-in-america-where-does-the-money-go.html

Another thing that bothers me is looking at CEO salary of American companies vs Japanese. It's something like $20 million per year for GM and $4 million for Toyota. What's up with that?

Paying CEO of Gm is not that big of a deal. But millions for CEO of Sears? $18 millions for CEO of Toy's R'Us? etc.
Tax cuts that are passed last yer resulted in 1 trillion of stock buyback, not investment in American economy.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by javacontour
They tried the Mondeo here in the 1990s. The Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique was a Mondeo. Both on the CDW-27 platform. The "new" Cougar (FWD) was also based on that platform.

It just didn't sell.

Sure, a few of we enthusiasts bought it. The SVT version, which I think equates to the ST250 (IIRC) version of that car.

However, Ford was putting incentives on the Taurus, trying to outsell Camry/Accord. American shoppers seem to value the most pounds of car / dollar, so it was cheaper to buy a Taurus than a Contour.

The Contour experiment ran from 1995-2000. By then the Focus was coming and the Contour disappeared.

Great handling cars. We never got a diesel version. We got the 2.0L Zetec and the 2.5L Duratec, bumped up to 195-200hp in the SVT version depending on the year of sale.

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Kurtatron
This stuff does make me nervous, working in the motor city and all. I think it would be sad to see the big 3 go under, considering their long history. I hope they don't, but I do agree that they need to get their act together and make solid cars. Ford was just starting to get somewhere with the fusion. Not to mention the reliability reports of the panther platform. A shame they are not continuing that opportunity. I am saving my pennies for the next downturn, just in case I lose my job.

Some time ago, before I landed to the New World, I was test driver for some small car magazine in Europe.
Anyway, we had on a test this Ford Mondeo equipped with 2.2 TDCI engine with 185hp and I believe some 270-280lb-ft of torque. Great handling, 6-speed MT. So I was pushing that sucker to some 240km/h and I saw far behind me a car fallowing me, but cannot catch up. Anyway at tool booth that car catches up and then I saw red/blue flashing lights behind windshield. It was police interceptor VW GTI. So this Ford had all markings that it is Ford test vehicle etc. Police officer says to me: dude, you are not in trouble. Just wanna know what the [censored] is under that hood? I am trying to catch up with you last 20km.
That vehicle never made to the US. Ford kept it in Europe.
Current Fusion is newer generation of that Mondeo, but again, we do not get all the goodies that are available in Europe. Mondeo in Europe has reputation of great handling vehicle for decent price. Ford can do it. But, I really cannot figure out some decision making process and marketing.


This was actually 2nd generation Mondeo, generation after that one you are talking about. It was MUCH better car period. First gen. Mondeo was so, so. Good car, but too much compromise I believe in order to bridge a gap between American tastes and European. With 2nd generation they went all on technology, new diesel engines etc. It was really good car, probably just bit behind Passat B5.5 which was Audi in disguise.

 

[StevieC]

They are only shooting themselves in the foot long term because the more and more they kill jobs here the more and more those folks can't participate fully in the economy which affects their sales further and further and they slash more and more jobs here and the cycle continues until there is nothing left. Although the real growth is going to come from China/India in the future so I think they no longer care and that is really sad.

Globalization is a good thing but only if the wages / living standards are equal with the countries trading with each other otherwise this unfair unbalanced nonsense we see, happens.

Imposing tariffs and trying to close trade isn't going to work. World leaders need to come together and agree to standardization with regulation in place or cut out said countries from trading with them in order to fix it. It's either this or else corporations will continue to run wherever it's advantageous because their competitors are doing the same. This will never happen though because we all know corporations own our governments and that is the big problem.

I'll leave it there so the thread doesn't get locked.

 

[Kurtatron]

I agree with your statement.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by madRiver
In a sentence the problem is basing your entire business plan on selling a ton of full size pickups and certain SUVs at massive profit. The rest of models is darts and legacy killing ya.

I would say that sums it up nicely.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted by edyvw

What is measurement of road quality? Go to any EU country and their HWY system is of much higher quality.
But, let's say someone calculated number of potholes in countries and took into consideration all other variables, we are still largest economy in the world, but have mediocre roads.


And in 1942-43, we built the entire 1500 mile Alaska-Canada road system in 18 months. Today, road crews cannot even finish a road intersection in that time frame. The entire 102 story Empire State Building was constructed in 13 months in 1931. The Brownell's guns parts warehouse near me, they couldn't get that building completed in under two years. The colossal waste of resources that goes on now in road building / repair is criminal. And most road projects are viewed as retirement plans which is why they take so long to accomplish.

Only one time in recent memory was things done right. The rebuild of the infrastructure in the LA basin after the earthquake. The state determined what needed to be done, only approached those contractors who could get it done in a timely manner, and offered major bonuses for every day the job got done early. The entire LA Basin, all bridges and roads, were repaired and opened in less than 120 days. The construction companies brought in all the help they needed, provided bonuses to the workers, ran operations 24/7, and made as much or more in bonus as they did to do the job. Under normal construction processes today, the same job would not have been done in 20 years.

 

[4WD]

Amen ... I have been passing through road construction in the same area for so many years that I have lost count ... and it does not look anywhere near done ...

I have a new doctor from Michigan who is now in the middle of this Texas area.
He said up there they have two seasons: Winter and Construction Season ... he's used to it ...

 

[4WD]

I'm in many of EU countries often - in one now - huge mix of road quality - but I understand you hate everything about the USA and long for Croatia ...

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by edyvw

What is measurement of road quality? Go to any EU country and their HWY system is of much higher quality.
But, let's say someone calculated number of potholes in countries and took into consideration all other variables, we are still largest economy in the world, but have mediocre roads.


And in 1942-43, we built the entire 1500 mile Alaska-Canada road system in 18 months. Today, road crews cannot even finish a road intersection in that time frame. The entire 102 story Empire State Building was constructed in 13 months in 1931. The Brownell's guns parts warehouse near me, they couldn't get that building completed in under two years. The colossal waste of resources that goes on now in road building / repair is criminal. And most road projects are viewed as retirement plans which is why they take so long to accomplish.

Only one time in recent memory was things done right. The rebuild of the infrastructure in the LA basin after the earthquake. The state determined what needed to be done, only approached those contractors who could get it done in a timely manner, and offered major bonuses for every day the job got done early. The entire LA Basin, all bridges and roads, were repaired and opened in less than 120 days. The construction companies brought in all the help they needed, provided bonuses to the workers, ran operations 24/7, and made as much or more in bonus as they did to do the job. Under normal construction processes today, the same job would not have been done in 20 years.




This is so true. In 2000 construction started on Interstate 5 through Tacoma to add a HOV lane in each direction. They are still working on it though the end is in sight, so they say. They have also added a turn lane on a half mile stretch of road near me. That road closed last spring and just reopened today.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by 4WD
I'm in many of EU countries often - in one now - huge mix of road quality - but I understand you hate everything about the USA and long for Croatia ...

LOL, what criticism has to do with hate?
But I do understand that you like someone else thinking for you. Not uncommon in TX these days.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by edyvw

What is measurement of road quality? Go to any EU country and their HWY system is of much higher quality.
But, let's say someone calculated number of potholes in countries and took into consideration all other variables, we are still largest economy in the world, but have mediocre roads.


And in 1942-43, we built the entire 1500 mile Alaska-Canada road system in 18 months. Today, road crews cannot even finish a road intersection in that time frame. The entire 102 story Empire State Building was constructed in 13 months in 1931. The Brownell's guns parts warehouse near me, they couldn't get that building completed in under two years. The colossal waste of resources that goes on now in road building / repair is criminal. And most road projects are viewed as retirement plans which is why they take so long to accomplish.

Only one time in recent memory was things done right. The rebuild of the infrastructure in the LA basin after the earthquake. The state determined what needed to be done, only approached those contractors who could get it done in a timely manner, and offered major bonuses for every day the job got done early. The entire LA Basin, all bridges and roads, were repaired and opened in less than 120 days. The construction companies brought in all the help they needed, provided bonuses to the workers, ran operations 24/7, and made as much or more in bonus as they did to do the job. Under normal construction processes today, the same job would not have been done in 20 years.

Two years back they finally started to talk about expanding I25 between Colorado Springs and Denver. There is a stretch of 21 miles that has two lanes in each direction, only stretch of two lanes in each direction between Colorado Springs and Fort Collins. Around 100,000 cars pass every day there. So CDOT comes out and says: to get all approvals, licenses etc. it will take, watch this, until 2024, and then construction will start.
Of course people got [censored], it became political issue, and somehow all approvals etc. were obtained in 6 months. It can be done. Of course it will be toll lane becase no one wants to pay taxes for it, and now they complain because it is toll lane.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by edyvw

What is measurement of road quality? Go to any EU country and their HWY system is of much higher quality.
But, let's say someone calculated number of potholes in countries and took into consideration all other variables, we are still largest economy in the world, but have mediocre roads.


And in 1942-43, we built the entire 1500 mile Alaska-Canada road system in 18 months. Today, road crews cannot even finish a road intersection in that time frame. The entire 102 story Empire State Building was constructed in 13 months in 1931. The Brownell's guns parts warehouse near me, they couldn't get that building completed in under two years. The colossal waste of resources that goes on now in road building / repair is criminal. And most road projects are viewed as retirement plans which is why they take so long to accomplish.

Only one time in recent memory was things done right. The rebuild of the infrastructure in the LA basin after the earthquake. The state determined what needed to be done, only approached those contractors who could get it done in a timely manner, and offered major bonuses for every day the job got done early. The entire LA Basin, all bridges and roads, were repaired and opened in less than 120 days. The construction companies brought in all the help they needed, provided bonuses to the workers, ran operations 24/7, and made as much or more in bonus as they did to do the job. Under normal construction processes today, the same job would not have been done in 20 years.

Two years back they finally started to talk about expanding I25 between Colorado Springs and Denver. There is a stretch of 21 miles that has two lanes in each direction, only stretch of two lanes in each direction between Colorado Springs and Fort Collins. Around 100,000 cars pass every day there. So CDOT comes out and says: to get all approvals, licenses etc. it will take, watch this, until 2024, and then construction will start.
Of course people got [censored], it became political issue, and somehow all approvals etc. were obtained in 6 months. It can be done. Of course it will be toll lane becase no one wants to pay taxes for it, and now they complain because it is toll lane.





That's what they do in WA state but the new HOV lanes are not just toll lanes but variable tolls. Depending on congestion and the time frame the rates increase or decrease.

Funny thing, a driver pays a few bucks to use these HOT lanes as they are called and they end up in the same traffic jam as everyone else.