The Information Age

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In California, residents may feed solar power into the grid while paying only for the net difference of power consumed and power produced.
 
don't forget the cost of a grid-tie inverter, and replacements when it burns out from lightning or "made in china" syndrome. Warranty on panels is usually 20 years, but there's more than just the panels in a system.

What's the cost of PV power? 50 cents/kw-hr? Why would you do that when you can get more power for the same amount of money, using other renewable methods?
 
You are deflecting my question with questions.

You proposed:
Quote:
if it's PV panels, you're in negative energy profit territory, if you add up the energy used in manufacturing, installation, and maintenance of the system.


I asked:
Quote:
On what expected service life of a PV system do you base that assessment?


Surely you have calculated the figures before coming to your assessment?
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
and if it's PV panels, you're in negative energy profit territory, if you add up the energy used in manufacturing, installation, and maintenance of the system.


This WAS ONCE true, it is not the case anymore. Just like corn to ethanol WAS ONCE more energy intensive than the returns, again advanced processing methods have made them both energy positive ventures.
 
Originally Posted By: moribundman

Surely you have calculated the figures before coming to your assessment?

If its 'renewable' it is inherently bad (for some)
 
Wind power can be made for 5 cents/kw-hr. PV is many times more. It's not a hard decision. PV is good only if you're away from the grid, and don't have room for a wind turbine, such as on a boat. Some of the newer focusing solar thermal converters might compete, but I don't know the prices.

Conservation is even cheaper.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
Wind power can be made for 5 cents/kw-hr. PV is many times more. It's not a hard decision. PV is good only if you're away from the grid, and don't have room for a wind turbine, such as on a boat. Some of the newer focusing solar thermal converters might compete, but I don't know the prices.

Conservation is even cheaper.


Still no figures. Wind turbine components and generators never break down? What's liability insurance run to operate a personal windmill where the public might get hit by debris (parts or ice in the winter)?

You are wrong about windmills being unsuitable for boats. That's actually one area where windmills make a lot of sense. Wind turbines are used for power generation and propulsion. Turbosails are also in use, for example as a supplemental propulsion system in Cousteau's Alcyone.
 
Originally Posted By: moribundman
oilyriser said:
Still no figures. Wind turbine components and generators never break down? What's liability insurance run to operate a personal windmill where the public might get hit by debris (parts or ice in the winter)?

Wholesale prices appears to be around 5 cents..probably less per kwh. That would cover Operation and Maint. O@M is closer to 1 cent per kw than 2 cents.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy07osti/41435.pdf
Click to expand...
 
The land around wind turbines should be farmed to keep trees from blocking the wind, and to keep people far away. A 2.5MW unit costs around 3 to 4 million to put up, and in a good location makes an average of 0.825 MW for 20 years, or a total of 145 GW-hrs. Then you have to rebuild the generator and replace blades and probably the control electronics have to be replaced a few times. The tower should still be standing and the roads, wires and foundation should last much longer than 20 years.

The amount of wind power available is a bit more clear than for oil, but it can still change due to changing weather patterns as the ocean currents fluctuate.
 
Quote:
PV is good only if you're away from the grid,


That's the most practical usage for it. In my neck of the woods it's, at best 45% efficient (vendor estimate) and is a loser. If, on the other hand, the alternative was $50k to have the nearest utility run power to my remote compound ...
21.gif


There's a current scam that my in the beltway friend is hook into. All he needs is a company to allow the PV panels to be placed on-site. The industry just needs to use them for whatever power they produce. The tax structure makes all the gains even if the entire exercise is a loser in terms of pure ROI for the vendor.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
all these subsidies artificially increase demand which raises the price of PV so its too expensive for people who really need it


Well, I don't know if I can view it that way. It allows just enough money to keep the price prohibitive. It's just like hospital monitors. Limited distribution and blank check payers that hand the cost on down the line. With the real cost disappearing into tax land ..no sensible economy can emerge.

I'm sure that with some manufacturing of scale (like some "war time" type effort ..but without a war), that they would be rather economical ..but without such Detroit like assembly line supply train, it isn't going to happen.

So, you give them away to your priveleged ..and subsidize your pals. It's like ethanol. No sensible reduction in petro imports occurs.
 
Looks like there will be no ice at the North Pole this summer.
 
Maybe we can make artificial icebergs out of recycled plastics for the seals and polar bears ..maybe even some engineered obstacles for ship captains. You can't make it all that easy.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: moribundman
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Might be slightly exaggerated, but there will eventually be ice-free passage where there isn't now, assuming things continue on this trend.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080627/sc_livescience/northpolecouldbeicefreethissummer

What a load of excrement.


Eight years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/888235.stm

That is not even close to the entire thing melting.


And the article doesn't claim "completely melted" anywhere.
 
One thing we can't deny at this point and that is our climate is changing.
 
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