The economics of CAFE credits on the EV market.

[Torrid]

Being as that refining is in the 3%-4% range, it is reasonably meaningless. Same goes for transport. It is a trivial number around 1 to 2%. Even so, we must remember that the power plants consume coal, nuclear fuel, natural gas and solar/wind, which all have energy costs.

My point remains. The fuel industry is very efficient. And consuming that fuel efficiently "on location" is always better. Even the lowly Toyota Camry is now 40% thermally efficient.

I didn’t say that it was a large number. I said that’s not considered with gasoline so why would it be calculated with EVs? If it was calculated with gas and not EVs I’d say that was an issue.

+1 Reality is a heck of a concept for some people to understand.

Oh bite me you condescending ass. Read what I said above.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Being as that refining is in the 3%-4% range, it is reasonably meaningless. Same goes for transport. It is a trivial number around 1 to 2%. Even so, we must remember that the power plants consume coal, nuclear fuel, natural gas and solar/wind, which all have energy costs.

My point remains. The fuel industry is very efficient. And consuming that fuel efficiently "on location" is always better. Even the lowly Toyota Camry is now 40% thermally efficient.

It's not efficiency but well-to-wheel emissions per mile that matter. . Diesel is behind every time so it's rather moot to pine on over efficiency.

https://www.cummins.com/news/2022/05/26/well-wheel-emissions-simplified

 

[Redhawk454]

That’s nice, the government can go puck itself…

I’ll stick to my fossil fuel burners

 

[Torrid]

That’s nice, the government can go puck itself…

I’ll stick to my fossil fuel burners

Good luck with that. If they make it official there's not much we could do about it.

 

[Redhawk454]

Good luck with that. If they make it official there's not much we could do about it.

Only a matter of time anyway. That’s why I want my fossil fuel burners to last over 500k miles as a middle finger to the government

 

[Rmay635703]

Being as that refining is in the 3%-4% range, it is reasonably meaningless. Same goes for transport. It is a trivial number around 1 to 2%.

Maybe 50 years ago or in Saudi Arabia , refining is 12% and has been for some time, drilling/exploration is much more energy intensive than ever before. This is where the moniker that the energy to refine a gallon of gas would propel an EV 10 miles came from. Transport losses are higher than before considering we trade a significant amount of our crude via ocean for other crude . All sorts of stupid in industry now days.

Even “Spoilage” lingers around 5% which is crude/gas/diesel that never makes it to its intended destination, AKA spilled either below ground, above ground or in/under the ocean or even into the air as voc.

Modern oil is quite dirty and lossy, you don’t get flaming faucets with 100% collection

 

[Torrid]

Only a matter of time anyway. That’s why I want my fossil fuel burners to last over 500k miles as a middle finger to the government

That’ll get expensive. I’m not even worried about the powertrain at that point. That’s like 4-5 sets of chassis bushings later if the rest of it holds up and the odds and ends of bearings, ball joints, and all the plastic crap that will break.

I love my ICE vehicles too, but I don’t want to be on the road in anything that is no longer mechanically sound well past its working limits especially with my children in the car.

I just did the math out on scheduled service for 500,000 miles and if I had the dealer do it on my VW that would be a total of $18k. That’s about $10k in fluids and materials doing it all myself if nothing else broke and it will obviously. It also doesn’t include tires.

 

[Redhawk454]

That’ll get expensive. I’m not even worried about the powertrain at that point. That’s like 4-5 sets of chassis bushings later if the rest of it holds up and the odds and ends of bearings, ball joints, and all the plastic crap that will break.

I love my ICE vehicles too, but I don’t want to be on the road in anything that is no longer mechanically sound well past its working limits especially with my children in the car.

I just did the math out on scheduled service for 500,000 miles and if I had the dealer do it on my VW that would be a total of $18k. That’s about $10k in fluids and materials doing it all myself if nothing else broke and it will obviously. It also doesn’t include tires.

Either way you’re spending money. You can spend money keeping up on maintenance or you can overpay for whatever plastic EV or 0w-00 piece of junk rolls off Ford or Chevys assembly line in 2032..

 

[Torrid]

Either way you’re spending money. You can spend money keeping up on maintenance or you can overpay for whatever plastic EV or 0w-00 piece of junk rolls off Ford or Chevys assembly line in 2032..

I’ll take the one with the warranty. The plastic EV please.

 

[Trav]

I didn’t say that it was a large number. I said that’s not considered with gasoline so why would it be calculated with EVs? If it was calculated with gas and not EVs I’d say that was an issue.



Oh bite me you condescending ass. Read what I said above.

It is sad you found the need to get down to that level. But anyway I will take a hard pass on that.

 

[Redhawk454]

I’ll take the one with the warranty. The plastic EV please.

Yea, a lot of people trade in once the warranty is gone. It makes sense. But then there’s other people like me who want to squeeze every bit of life out of a motor and vehicle.

I refuse to give in to some government critter or government entity. I’ll keep my fossil fuel burners as long as I can. I still have Love for pistons.

 

[Brons2]

I'm waiting for someone to help me understand the environmental impact of lithium and other precious metals required in battery manufacturing.

It's a red herring unless you walk or ride a bike. The environmental impact of resource extracting anything is high, and that is to include fossil fuels.

EV batteries can be recycled, and probably will be once the economy of scale exists to make it a business. Right now there are not enough used EV batteries out there to make the capital investments in plants and equipment profitable, but we will get there. The raw materials are too valuable for the used up batteries to go in the landfill.

As for the other parts of vehicles not related fuel storage or engines, they will be recycled at the same rate they always have been.

 

[Brons2]

Being as that refining is in the 3%-4% range, it is reasonably meaningless. Same goes for transport. It is a trivial number around 1 to 2%. Even so, we must remember that the power plants consume coal, nuclear fuel, natural gas and solar/wind, which all have energy costs.

My point remains. The fuel industry is very efficient. And consuming that fuel efficiently "on location" is always better. Even the lowly Toyota Camry is now 40% thermally efficient.

3-4% is absolutely meaningful at scale. Maybe not for an individual car owner, but at a macro level it is meaningful.

 

[Torrid]

Yea, a lot of people trade in once the warranty is gone. It makes sense. But then there’s other people like me who want to squeeze every bit of life out of a motor and vehicle.

I refuse to give in to some government critter or government entity. I’ll keep my fossil fuel burners as long as I can. I still have Love for pistons.

I love ICE vehicles too and I’ll have at least one of those too, probably in some performance variant. I’ll also have an EV though. The best part about the EV is it usually has a 10 year warranty and very little required maintenance. I’ll buy another in 10 years.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

It's a red herring unless you walk or ride a bike. The environmental impact of resource extracting anything is high, and that is to include fossil fuels.

EV batteries can be recycled, and probably will be once the economy of scale exists to make it a business. Right now there are not enough used EV batteries out there to make the capital investments in plants and equipment profitable, but we will get there. The raw materials are too valuable for the used up batteries to go in the landfill.

As for the other parts of vehicles not related fuel storage or engines, they will be recycled at the same rate they always have been.

Not to mention that one of the worlds largest lithium deposits might have been found in Nevada/Oregon.

On top of a potentially huge rare-earth deposit in NE Wyoming.