The Decision to Reload - Cost Effectiveness?

[JHZR2]

Multiple options is the issue!!

Seems Hornady lock and load is a viable alternative to the Dillon toolhead. So there's that system consideration too...

 

[billt460]

The biggest issue with the Dillon is their powder measures. I've been through 4 of them in 2 Dillon presses over the last 20 years. All were replaced without incident by way of their excellent "No B.S. Warranty". But that doesn't justify the cheap, problematic design. It incorporates a die cast Aluminum housing with a sliding Aluminum powder bar. The tolerances are very loose compared to a precision bored rotating drum measure like Redding or Hornady employs on their measures.

This die cast looser tolerance measure allows fine grained ball powders like H-110 to get in between the bar and housing of the measure itself, causing it to bind up. It also does not provide much mechanical advantage to shear heavy, coarse grained stick powders like IMR 4831. Dillon even sells an adapter of sorts so you can use other rotating drum type measures on some of their progressive presses.

I only load larger grained ball powders if possible on my Dillon's, and I avoid coarse grained stick powders like the plague. For .223 / 5.56 MM I stick with either Hogdon H-335 or CFE-223. Both flow like water through the Dillon measure. If you go with a Hornady Lock-N-Load system, you will circumvent much of this.

 

[EdwardC]

Yeah, there are a lot of options in the world of reloading presses.

I went through a similar debate when I got into reloading a couple years ago.

On the value end (since I had no idea if I'd like to reload and want to continue in the future), I was very close to getting the Lee Classic press. It's a 4-hole turret press that gets pretty good reviews. Make sure it's the Classic model, I believe the it's the better model with a cast iron base. I had this in my online cart for days while I was debating, it gets you going very inexpensively (~$300?).

My next step up was to invest in a progressive type press, of which I was debating the Hornady LnL and Dillon 650 models. I couldn't justify the 550 to myself since it was operationally similar to the Lee turret press, but for a lot more money (even more than the Hornady LnL).

Ultimately I went with the Hornady and am currently satisfied with it. I have no doubt the Dillons are great machines and worth the money, I just couldn't justify it at the time, knowing that I may not even like the hobby. Out the door, the 650 was significantly more expensive than the Hornady AP. Hornady had very good reviews still, so it's not like I was buying junk. In addition, Hornady had a mail-in-rebate promotion for 500 free XTP bullets, so that made the Hornady system even cheaper.



I've only reloaded pistol cartridges, but here's a few things I've encountered since I started:

- Switching calibers is a bit of a hassle, even with the LnL collars. From 9mm to 10mm, you still have to switch out the primer insertion parts and the shell plate. I can't imagine switching calibers and having to dial in dies every time.

- Now that I have enough brass saved up, I do much larger batches of 9mm and 10mm, just to avoid caliber switches

- I like the Lee Factory Crimp die. I bought the Hornady branded dies initially, but I found a few rounds that wouldn't chamber right, using the Lee FCD at the very end prevented this. (Looking back, I might have considered buying the Lee 4-die sets, but buying the add-on FCD was fine too). In hindsight, this is another reason I like the 5 station presses. Add a case checker and bullet puller to your list of stuff to buy, if you haven't already.

- I don't really like the Hornady primer loading method. You have to flip all the primers to be shiny side up, then manually use the tube to capture each one. Kind of tiring on the fingers. I'm considering a manual hand primer.

I wet process in SS pins in a cheap home-made tumbler. It's pretty small, but works for me. My current process is to deprime, then wet tumble. I'm probably inhaling a but extra powder residue while depriming a dirty case, but I don't want to tumble twice. I usually don't go in full progressive mode, I usually prime all my brass at once, then store it. When I'm ready to use, I resize, flare, drop powder, insert bullet, then finish with the FCD. I do this for 2 reasons, main reason was that one time I was reloading, I forgot to push the lever (essentially forgetting to insert a primer). Then I dropped the powder and it flowed right through, making a mess. The second reason is that I don't have to switch out the priming mechanism when switching calibers (I save up a lot more brass to do at once). Again, the manual hand primer might save me some time with my current process.

Good luck!

 

[bunnspecial]

Reloading to me is as much a hobby as shooting, although the savings CAN be there in some calibers(and is quite prominent in more obscure calibers).

For 9mm or 40 to save money these days, forget it. For magnum handguns or less common calibers(44 Special, 45 Colt, or some of my favorites like 38 Super and 32-20) the cost savings is very real.

Also, there's the ability to get EXACTLY what you want. I don't like cleaning the crud rings out of 357 and 44 Mag chambers, for example, so I load "target loads" in magnum brass(proceed cautiously with this and don't underload them). Most commercial 357 mag loadings, for example, tend to be on the light side of what the caliber is capable of. I basically have three go-to 357 mag loads-the target load I mentioned, an "I know it's a magnum but can still shoot it all day" load, and the everyone on the range looks at you and says "what was that?" load.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: billt460
The biggest issue with the Dillon is their powder measures. I've been through 4 of them in 2 Dillon presses over the last 20 years. All were replaced without incident by way of their excellent "No B.S. Warranty". But that doesn't justify the cheap, problematic design. It incorporates a die cast Aluminum housing with a sliding Aluminum powder bar. The tolerances are very loose compared to a precision bored rotating drum measure like Redding or Hornady employs on their measures.

This die cast looser tolerance measure allows fine grained ball powders like H-110 to get in between the bar and housing of the measure itself, causing it to bind up. It also does not provide much mechanical advantage to shear heavy, coarse grained stick powders like IMR 4831. Dillon even sells an adapter of sorts so you can use other rotating drum type measures on some of their progressive presses.

I only load larger grained ball powders if possible on my Dillon's, and I avoid coarse grained stick powders like the plague. For .223 / 5.56 MM I stick with either Hogdon H-335 or CFE-223. Both flow like water through the Dillon measure. If you go with a Hornady Lock-N-Load system, you will circumvent much of this.


Powder is probably my biggest consideration right now. Specifically, getting the powder measure and application right. Double charge scares me a bit.

But Ive seen some videos where Lee powder measures are used in Dillon presses. Isn't much of the kit from any manufacturer interchangeable, so long as it threads properly in the die locations?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Powder is probably my biggest consideration right now. Specifically, getting the powder measure and application right. Double charge scares me a bit.


The best thing to do is to always try to select a powder that has at least 50% case capacity for a given charge weight. That way if you double charge a case, you'll know it right away, because it will spill over and get your attention. Guys get into the most trouble with powder by selecting high energy, low volume powders in pistol rounds. Powders like Bullseye have a very low charge weight in low velocity target handgun cartridges like the .38 Special. You can easily double, and even triple charge a case if you are careless. A lot of good revolvers have been blown up over the years by Bullseye. It's not a "dangerous" powder. It just calls for your complete, undivided attention when using it. It's even more of a concern now with so many progressive presses out there. With a single stage press you can eyeball the charged cases in a loading block before the bullet seating operation.

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
But Ive seen some videos where Lee powder measures are used in Dillon presses. Isn't much of the kit from any manufacturer interchangeable, so long as it threads properly in the die locations?


All dies are 7/8-14 standard thread. Most powder measures either come with, or else sell an adapter with that thread on the O.D. so you can thread them into most any press. And it's internally threaded to match whatever thread they put on the O.D. of the drop stem of the measure itself. I forget what my Lyman 55 and my Redding BR are at the moment.

 

[EdwardC]

bill beat me to it, I've mostly stuck to powders that are low enough density that it's pretty obvious there was a double charge. I don't have a bullet feeder, so I have to manually put the bullet into the case and a double charge would be very obvious (if not overflowing).

 

[jjjxlr8]

I would recommend starting with a single stage press rather than a turret style. When you are just learning to reload, I think it's less complicated and safer with the single stage setup. For example, you can have all of your powdered filled cases in a case holder for a quick visual inspection of the powder level before moving to the next step of pressing in the bullets. The turrets can make ammo faster, but if you make a mistake, you may make a bunch of bad ammo. You may find that a single stage press is enough to suit your shooting needs anyway.

 

[bunnspecial]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Powders like Bullseye have a very low charge weight in low velocity target handgun cartridges like the .38 Special. You can easily double, and even triple charge a case if you are careless. A lot of good revolvers have been blown up over the


I've dropped a lot of Bullseye in the 2.7-3gr range in 38 Special. That's my main application for it, and I've used a few pounds of it in my time reloading, so do the math as to how many rounds that is.

It does require constant, undivided attention. I also have a rule of NOT using Bullseye(or Titegroup, Red Dot, or any other fast powder) in loads that are intended to generate 30,000+ psi as the consequences of a double charge in that situation can be quite distastrous. That's not to say double charging one at target velocities is "safe" but you have less of a chance of a kaboom than if you're hitting high pressures. To me, fast powders are strictly target load powders for low pressure cartridges.

One of the great things about Winchester 296 in magnum handguns is that you can't physically fit enough powder in the cartridge(and still seat a bullet) to blow up properly treated gun. Most max loads with this powder are pretty darn close to full if not compressed anyway. You CAN overcharge with 2400, but I doubt by enough to blow up the gun(and you'd certainly notice a double charge). IMR 4227 won't go there either.

In general, though, I agree and I like more of a medium burn rate if I'm going for a non-target but not full blown load. Unique is my powder of choice(enough that I have two 8lb kegs stashed away) but newer powders like CFE Pistol and BE-86 also work well(and are cleaner). Vihtavouhri N340 is a new one to me, and it's super clean although quite expensive. Also, my Lee Auto Disk doesn't handle lower weights of stick powders very well. Blue Dot is a good choice if you want to stay in the "mid range" but still crank things up a bit. Herco is an often forgotten but still good powder in this range.

Of course, if you want mouse [censored] loads and no chance of double charging, there's always Trail Boss. I don't like the stuff-it's too expensive(same price as all other "1 lb" Hodgdon powder cans, but a 9 oz. bottle) and I can't stand the ammonia smell it gives off when it burns.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
Of course, if you want mouse [censored] loads and no chance of double charging, there's always Trail Boss. I don't like the stuff-it's too expensive(same price as all other "1 lb" Hodgdon powder cans, but a 9 oz. bottle) and I can't stand the ammonia smell it gives off when it burns.


Trail Boss was developed for the Cowboy Action market exactly for that reason. It couldn't be double charged in the .45 Colt case. It's large "doughnut" kernels take up a lot of volume. But you are exactly right. It's a rip off cost wise, and the stuff stinks to high heaven.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: billt460
The biggest issue with the Dillon is their powder measures. I've been through 4 of them in 2 Dillon presses over the last 20 years. All were replaced without incident by way of their excellent "No B.S. Warranty". But that doesn't justify the cheap, problematic design. It incorporates a die cast Aluminum housing with a sliding Aluminum powder bar. The tolerances are very loose compared to a precision bored rotating drum measure like Redding or Hornady employs on their measures.

This die cast looser tolerance measure allows fine grained ball powders like H-110 to get in between the bar and housing of the measure itself, causing it to bind up. It also does not provide much mechanical advantage to shear heavy, coarse grained stick powders like IMR 4831. Dillon even sells an adapter of sorts so you can use other rotating drum type measures on some of their progressive presses.

I only load larger grained ball powders if possible on my Dillon's, and I avoid coarse grained stick powders like the plague. For .223 / 5.56 MM I stick with either Hogdon H-335 or CFE-223. Both flow like water through the Dillon measure. If you go with a Hornady Lock-N-Load system, you will circumvent much of this.
I have never had a problem with them, but it is likely due to my choice of powders and that I use a double spring to force the return of the charging bar. I do acknowledge that extruded powders do not work well with Dillon powder measures, but when I had a Hornady, I had issues with those too--none of them are perfect.

 

[bunnspecial]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
Of course, if you want mouse [censored] loads and no chance of double charging, there's always Trail Boss. I don't like the stuff-it's too expensive(same price as all other "1 lb" Hodgdon powder cans, but a 9 oz. bottle) and I can't stand the ammonia smell it gives off when it burns.


Trail Boss was developed for the Cowboy Action market exactly for that reason. It couldn't be double charged in the .45 Colt case. It's large "doughnut" kernels take up a lot of volume. But you are exactly right. It's a rip off cost wise, and the stuff stinks to high heaven.


From what I recall, even though there are published weights for Trail Boss, the general advice is to more or less load it according to case volume(legal disclaimer: always follow published reloading data, and don't take advice from some random guy on the internet). That 9 oz. can goes FAST if you're loading 45 Colt with it. Also, it is quite a fast powder, and if you start pushing it the pressure curve is very "spiky." Plus, I've found that the doughnuts don't meter well.

I'm not sure if I've ever used Bullseye in 45 Colt. On paper, it should be a good powder but the tiny little bit in a big case scares me. I've stayed away from it even though every reloading manual I've seen gives data for it for virtually every bullet. Most of my 45 Colt reloading is done with the now-discontinued IMR PB. It's quite an old powder, but I tried some in 45 Colt, loved it, and back in about ~2014 a local shop was trying to move their remaining inventory and sold me two cases(10 bottles) at $100 each. I should add that the shop had a strict "two bottles per person" policy in place at the time, but they were SO tired of having stacks of powder that no one would buy that they were more than happy to bend the rules on that occasion. In any case, I have been known to use Unique in 45 Colt also, and it's a great choice. Also, my "Blackhawk Only" 45 Colts have something like 26gr of Win 296 under a 250gr JHP. Those ALWAYS get loaded in new Starline brass with a Winchester primer(I use Federal or CCI for almost everything else). For those of you who don't know, most primers are nickel plated, but Winchesters are bare brass-they're my personal symbol for "hold on to your hat" loads.

Back when times were lean, I took a chance on Alliant 300MP. As best as I can tell, it's Win 296/HC110 for all intents and purposes. There's only one factory in the US that makes ball spherical powders(only Winchester makes ball powders, even for the same powders going into differently labeled containers). The load data is QUITE close to that published for 296, the volumetric density is virtually identical, the powder looks the same, and it has the same ether-like smell both when in the container and when burned. Of course, always use published data for 300MP and not for the other powders mentioned, but it's a good alternative when you can't find the others.

 

[bunnspecial]

Just realized I made a mistake...the Hodgden powder equivalent to Winchester 296 is H110 and not HC110. Apparently I've been spending more time in the darkroom than at the reloading bench, as HC110 is a popular Kodak film developer.

 

[jjjxlr8]

Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
Just realized I made a mistake...the Hodgden powder equivalent to Winchester 296 is H110 and not HC110. Apparently I've been spending more time in the darkroom than at the reloading bench, as HC110 is a popular Kodak film developer.


Yes H110 and W296! I use both of these propellants in loading M1 Carbine cartridges.