The Bear Topic

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Originally Posted by Astro14
The pictured S&W would be among my top choices for a self-defense handgun where bear were involved. Hard to beat a .44 magnum performance.

To be honest, however, having shot a 4" .44, it's not an easy gun to handle. Not everyone would be able to accurately place shots with it, certainly the follow up shots would be difficult for some. And they sure wouldn't want to spend time at the range with it...


It's all a matter of practice and grip and stance..
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by Astro14
The pictured S&W would be among my top choices for a self-defense handgun where bear were involved. Hard to beat a .44 magnum performance.

To be honest, however, having shot a 4" .44, it's not an easy gun to handle. Not everyone would be able to accurately place shots with it, certainly the follow up shots would be difficult for some. And they sure wouldn't want to spend time at the range with it...


It's all a matter of practice and grip and stance..


Thanks - I've got no issue with a .44 magnum. That orand a .454 Casull. Never fired anything bigger.

My point wasn't about what I can shoot - I'm fine with large bore guns.

My point was that the .44 is in that realm of guns that exclude many shooters. I don't care how much grip and stance training you give someone, there are many shooters who will not be able to handle a .44 Magnum. I'm not picking on my kid brother when I say this, he's former military, 6'5", has hands that can palm a basketball, owns several dozen guns and shoot regularly, but he's not accurate with his 4" Model 57 S&W (a .41 Magnum).

Big, strong, well trained. Still doesn't like it.

While a .44 might be the minimum, ballistically, recommendation for bear defense, I would argue (as I have countless times before) that the largest caliber that the shooter can handle, in a weapon that they have selected, is the best choice.

For example, the Danish Sirius Patrol, in Greenland, examined and tested .44 Magnum Revolvers as an alternative sidearm for Polar Bear defense. They came back to the Glock 20 (in 10mm) as the caliber/weapon that their soldiers (not small, not weak, not poorly trained) were best able to employ.

Caliber discussion can be interesting, academically, but how the shooter/caliber/weapon performs is paramount.
 
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by Astro14
The pictured S&W would be among my top choices for a self-defense handgun where bear were involved. Hard to beat a .44 magnum performance.

To be honest, however, having shot a 4" .44, it's not an easy gun to handle. Not everyone would be able to accurately place shots with it, certainly the follow up shots would be difficult for some. And they sure wouldn't want to spend time at the range with it...



Until you've shot a 460 S&W for the first time.


Was actually considering buying one, just for fun.

Can always load it up with .454 Casull if I don't feel like the recoil (or expense) of the .460 loads.

Or .45 Colt if I'm in the mood...
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted by Astro14
The pictured S&W would be among my top choices for a self-defense handgun where bear were involved. Hard to beat a .44 magnum performance.

To be honest, however, having shot a 4" .44, it's not an easy gun to handle. Not everyone would be able to accurately place shots with it, certainly the follow up shots would be difficult for some. And they sure wouldn't want to spend time at the range with it...



Until you've shot a 460 S&W for the first time.


Was actually considering buying one, just for fun.

Can always load it up with .454 Casull if I don't feel like the recoil (or expense) of the .460 loads.

Or .45 Colt if I'm in the mood...


Yes you can. But the rounds I'm familiar with in it are the Buffalo Bore 360 Gr. bullets. I haven't hand loaded for it yet. Yes and 45 Colt would be a great choice for practice.
 
Originally Posted by bubbatime
The cylinder gap blast on a .460 will blow your finger off if you are not holding it correctly. An experts gun, in my opinion.


Geez! I had no idea....

I was interested from a novelty perspective...and of course, I expect the recoil, but not that...
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
The pictured S&W would be among my top choices for a self-defense handgun where bear were involved. Hard to beat a .44 magnum performance.

To be honest, however, having shot a 4" .44, it's not an easy gun to handle. Not everyone would be able to accurately place shots with it, certainly the follow up shots would be difficult for some. And they sure wouldn't want to spend time at the range with it...


I know it's a far cry from a .44mag, but I love shooting my 3" GP100 in .44spl. It's one of my favorite because it is easy to handle and the impulse isn't harsh.

Charts Ive seen indicate that more mild .44 mag only have around 100ft-lb more than a .44 spl from a 4" barrel (ca. 500 vs 400). Granted hotter loads can get you to 800+ ft lb from a 4" .44mag.

Wonder if one could sequentially load, so the first shot was .44spl or a weaker .44mag, and the rest are the hot rounds that by that time may be more manageable due to adrenaline.
 
I've owned 2 revolvers in .44 mag, a S&W and a Ruger Super Blackhawk, 6" barrel minimum. Maybe there is something different about my technique, or the barrel length comes into play, but both were very comfortable for me to shoot, even more so than my 4" barrel S&W .357 mag when using full up factory loads.

I never noticed at the practice range (probably because I mostly used .38 Special reloads) but when shooting .357 and .44 mag together during concealed carry qualification, the .357 added a noticeable and uncomfortable twisting component to the recoil that was not present in the .44.

Before automatically dismissing a .44 mag as too much gun, I would recommend actually borrowing or renting one and shooting to see if that is the case. One minor drawback is people in lanes next to you at the range don't much like that pistol choice.
 
Another thing to keep in mind is what I like to call the .44 Magnum, "Then & Now" syndrome. Even the hottest loads today from outfits like Cor-Bon, Garrett, and Buffalo Bore are nowhere near the power levels that the ammunition factories were loading in the 60's and 70's. "Normal" .44 Magnum loadings from Winchester and Federal today are almost like hot .44 Specials in comparison to what used to be available.

Everything has been severely watered down in power across the board. Including maximum handloads in all of the modern loading manuals. So handling a .44 Magnum revolver today is much easier than it was when shooting a .44 Magnum revolver with ammunition from 4 or 5 decades ago. Lawyers, along with the fear of liability lawsuits, are a lot of the reason why. I have some old early 70's Remington 240 grain lead gas check loads that make anything available today pale in comparison. While it is still a very effective weapon, it's literally not the same gun.
 
Agreed.

Full power ammo is hard to come by... and what's happened to the 10mm (now, a .40 Long, for all intents and purposes) is a travesty.

Buffalo Bore is among the few making good loads across the board.

No One automatically dismissed anything, by the way, but not all shooters can handle all guns.

I simply made the point that a platform/ammo combination that is beyond the abilities of a particular shooter is a poor choice for that shooter.
 
Originally Posted by Astro14


No One automatically dismissed anything, by the way, but not all shooters can handle all guns.

I simply made the point that a platform/ammo combination that is beyond the abilities of a particular shooter is a poor choice for that shooter.


Very good point. I've made a poor choice in the past with a S&W Sigma that I couldn't wait to get rid of. You probably wouldn't buy a car without test driving, the same principle should be applied to a handgun. Since the Sigma I won't buy a gun I haven't shot the same model.

Very good info on loads I was not aware of.
 
Reed's Ammunition and Research makes numerous such full load power cartridges with hard cast bullets for these purposes. They're also my go-to for factory load non-corrosive Boxer primed ammo for archaic calibers like 9mm Largo for my old Astra 400 as an example, and are the only company I know offering full power loads in JHP for .38 Super Auto +P besides Buffalo Bore now with Corbon on the ropes (Federal AE JHP .38 Super Auto is a mid-range 9mm Parabellum load in muzzle energy).

https://shop.reedsammo.com/Pistol-Ammunition_c2.htm

Atomic Ammunition is a company that offers full pressure loads in a variety of popular calibers without going into non-standardized +P+ territory or +P in calibers where a +P loading standard isn't recognized. I don't own a 10mm (but am seeking a 10mm Star Megastar), when I find one I plan to purchase Atomic 10mm JHP cartridges for use in it. Their .40 S&W loads however are nothing special compared to Speer Gold Dot or Winchester Ranger Bonded for example, so I never choose ammo across all calibers I own in any single brand name, instead looking on a case by case basis for what I determine as best choice for my purposes.

http://atomicammunition.com

I have some Atomic Ammunition in .380 ACP and 9mm +P ammo for personal defense purposes.

Buffalo Bore does make a statement on .357 Magnum or higher power with larger bore being sufficient for bear defense with the proper cartridge & shot placement, and also notes the effects of choice of shot placement, in their Technical Articles section.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108
 
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Originally Posted by Astro14
Agreed. Full power ammo is hard to come by... and what's happened to the 10mm (now, a .40 Long, for all intents and purposes) is a travesty.

The 10 MM is an excellent example of how quickly a good cartridge can get diluted in power. The original loads that were available back in the mid 80's were far more productive than the anemic stuff now on the market. It all started when the FBI wanted their loads watered down by Federal. (Federal 10 MM FBI Load). It effectively turned the 10 MM into a hot .40 S&W. And things went downhill quickly from there.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
As a handloader I never though I would place such value in my older 1970's loading manuals. The newer editions just keep getting more anemic with every new issue.


I'll pay that...I only got into it in 1998 or thereabouts, and the ADI/THales stuff has gotten more useless
 
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