The Bear Topic

[brianm_14]

Just to comment as a university biologist, with field experience, a lot information about black and grizzly bears gets mixed up, when the two animals couldn't be more different. Black bears tend to be quite timid, and will run away from people if you make a lot of noise. Yell, stamp, and jump up and down! For the most part, dogs (if well controlled) will alert you to them and scare them away. Black bear mothers have been known to frequently leave their cubs (who will usually find the nearest tree anyway) and take off -not that I would press the matter. Bear spray is an excellent idea. It works. And everybody gets to go home! Just make sure it is real bear spray, not just pepper spray! Exceptions to timidity are black bears that have become habituated to humans. This occurs if garbage is left unsecured by idiots, or if idiots have been feeding the bears! Much more rarely, black bears in isolated rural areas have been known (in several cases) to have predated on humans. But again, this is extremely rare. Do I worry about it when in black bear territory, unarmed? Asleep in my tent? No. If you shoot a black bear, expect to pay a very hefty fine unless you can convince the skeptical game warden that you were indeed being attacked. The warden will not buy your story. Because it likely won't be true. You'll just be a panicked camper. And the wardens are very persistent in tracking people down. In most -virtually all- instances, the human -and not the poor bear- was at fault. That may give you some idea of how rare black bear attacks are, especially if one follows common sense camping precautions. Using a relatively small caliber handgun for defense is not a good idea. If you are attacked, you'll need a lucky shot or six. Plus, you are likely to merely wound the bear, creating a real hazard for others and a lingering, horrible death for the wounded bear. A .357 Magnum with 158 grain hardcast lead or JSP bullets, pushed hard, would be a minimum. I carry (primarily against two-legged trouble) a .41Magnum Ruger Blackhawk, 6-1/2" barrel, which I can shoot very, very well, and I've used it for hunting black bears (in-season, unsuccessfully,with a friend backing me up with a 12-ga). That is more like black bear medicine if loaded with 210 or 220 grain hardcast lead or tough JHP. Carry bear spray, bring your dogs (on leads), practice your good camp hygiene, and don't worry so much! You won't need your carry gun (for bears!). Now have a great time!

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Originally Posted by arob85

Bear spray is typically considered more effective than firearms, so I'd use that first. I would vote for the 9mm because it's more likely to be on you if you do need it.

At least that is what the Game Department that continue to set more Grizzlies lose all over this country is going to tell you.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by Johnny2Bad

Bear Spray is effective against Black Bears. It does work for Brown / Grizzly / Kodiaks but only for a limited time, and your bottle had better be full when you start spraying. Be sure to position yourself upwind before you spray or you might incapacitate yourself as well as the bear. Bear Spray is a very potent capsaicin formula, it is many times stronger than that allowed for Law Enforcement / Security / Prison use.

What are the laws on protecting yourself against human vermin with bear pepper spray? Is it illegal to use it on humans? For a woman, or even an older man, I would think it would be a far better choice than these tiny little bottles of pepper spray and MACE they sell at gun shops. The bear pepper spray is a lot more powerful, comes in a bigger container, (but still is not cumbersome to carry), shoots a much heavier stream a lot farther, and for sure would put a drug crazed idiot down, (or even more than one). Where as the weaker, smaller stuff might not. It would also work well on a large, mean, marauding dogs.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted by Johnny2Bad

Bear Spray is a very potent capsaicin formula, it is many times stronger than that allowed for Law Enforcement / Security / Prison

Wrong. Bear spray is very weak, and is 10 times weaker than actual police/prison pepper spray, according to this article. https://www.selfdefenseninja.com/bear-spray-vs-pepper-spray-whats-difference/

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted by billt460

Originally Posted by Johnny2Bad

Bear Spray is effective against Black Bears. It does work for Brown / Grizzly / Kodiaks but only for a limited time, and your bottle had better be full when you start spraying. Be sure to position yourself upwind before you spray or you might incapacitate yourself as well as the bear. Bear Spray is a very potent capsaicin formula, it is many times stronger than that allowed for Law Enforcement / Security / Prison use.

What are the laws on protecting yourself against human vermin with bear pepper spray? Is it illegal to use it on humans? For a woman, or even an older man, I would think it would be a far better choice than these tiny little bottles of pepper spray and MACE they sell at gun shops. The bear pepper spray is a lot more powerful, comes in a bigger container, (but still is not cumbersome to carry), shoots a much heavier stream a lot farther, and for sure would put a drug crazed idiot down, (or even more than one). Where as the weaker, smaller stuff might not. It would also work well on a large, mean, marauding dogs.

I worked in the mental ward of a supermax prison for several years. Basically, we pepper sprayed inmates daily. Multiply that by years, and you can see, I have a LOT of experience using the stuff, and seeing it used. I LOVE the stuff. I have seen what it can do, I know it works, and I carry a can of it every time I leave the house (along with my conceal carry pistol). As stated above, bear spray is much weaker than police spray. According to the article I posted above its about 10 times weaker than police spray. So its a bad choice for self defense. Here is a link to the best pepper sprays on the market. I have used them and to say I am impressed with their performance is an UNDERSTATEMENT. I actually feel deep down inside, that their strongest formula, (1.3%) is TOO hot. The stuff is brutal. The cops around here carry the 0.2% strength, which works 98% of the time. The much stronger 1.3% formula has worked every time I have seen it used, to include intense crying, projectile vomiting, and apologies. http://www.defense-technology.com/defense-technology/products/pepper-spray/1.3-pct-mc/ The Mark 3 and Mark 6 size canisters are normal size for daily civilian carry. A "normal" corrections officer would carry the mark 3 or mark 4 size, when dealing with 400 inmates on a rec yard. I was issued a mark 9 fogger (small fire extinguisher size) and the thing is comical how good it works. Bad behavior ---- spray the can ----- no more bad behavior. Its too large to carry every day as a civilian, but it would be a GREAT animal spray in my opinion.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by bubbatime

Originally Posted by Johnny2Bad

Bear Spray is a very potent capsaicin formula, it is many times stronger than that allowed for Law Enforcement / Security / Prison

Wrong. Bear spray is very weak, and is 10 times weaker than actual police/prison pepper spray, according to this article. https://www.selfdefenseninja.com/bear-spray-vs-pepper-spray-whats-difference/

That is surprising! You would think it would be far stronger.

 

[Garak]

Here, the bear spray is legal, and permitted a higher concentration (which likely doesn't happen, given that it's probably imported from the usual American sources in the first place), whereas the police or consumer variants are considered a prohibited weapon akin to a full auto Tommy gun.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by Garak

Here, the bear spray is legal, and permitted a higher concentration (which likely doesn't happen, given that it's probably imported from the usual American sources in the first place), whereas the police or consumer variants are considered a prohibited weapon akin to a full auto Tommy gun.

Same in Oz..just like vests and slingshots...and AK47s

 

[billt460]

From the Defense Technology website, this stuff appears to be available in .2, .4, .7, 1.3 concentrations. That is quite a wide range, with the 1.3 being over 6 times stronger than the weakest .2. Assuming the, "heat and pain level" directly correlates with those numbers. If one were to look at this like caliber selection for self defense, why not go with the 1.3? If and when you should ever need this, you want to be sure it puts the assailant down, and down fast and for sure. And unlike larger handgun calibers, there is no greater recoil, blast, difficulty in regards to control, or over penetration to be concerned with. The 1.3 would be no more difficult to "shoot" than the .2. so why would someone select the much weaker version? Bubba, when you get a chance weight in on this, because you are the one with the most experience with this product. Have you ever been shot with this stuff?

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted by billt460

From the Defense Technology website, this stuff appears to be available in .2, .4, .7, 1.3 concentrations. That is quite a wide range, with the 1.3 being over 6 times stronger than the weakest .2. Assuming the, "heat and pain level" directly correlates with those numbers. If one were to look at this like caliber selection for self defense, why not go with the 1.3? If and when you should ever need this, you want to be sure it puts the assailant down, and down fast and for sure. And unlike larger handgun calibers, there is no greater recoil, blast, difficulty in regards to control, or over penetration to be concerned with. The 1.3 would be no more difficult to "shoot" than the .2. so why would someone select the much weaker version? Bubba, when you get a chance weight in on this, because you are the one with the most experience with this product. Have you ever been shot with this stuff?

The weakest stuff is more than adequate, and would work on 97-98% of people. The stronger stuff would work on 99% of people. So they both work very good. The 1.3 will take much longer to decontaminate and is much more likely to cross-contaminate the user, and affect the user. When using the .2 strength, I will get some blow back, but its mild and not likely to affect me all that much. When using the 1.3% strength, it contaminates the air at a much higher percentage, affecting the eyes, skin, AND BREATHING much more the weaker formulas. I have literally sprayed someone with the 1.3% and then un-voluntarily, and against my will, projectile vomited all over the place, due to the cross contamination of myself. Basically, the stronger the formulas, the more it is going to affect the user. And yes the stronger formulas do ratchet up the pain and suffering quite a bit to the person suffering. The best I can describe is, would you rather be burned with a 1000 degree flame, or with a 1500 degree flame? Both are going to get your attention. Cops have to worry about decontamination time, so they are much more likely to use a 0.2% spray that will affect the user for a few hours, than a 1.3% spray that will put someone out of commission for a full day. Yes I have been sprayed with the stuff. I've had it on my skin dozens of times (sucks), and had it in my lungs dozens more times (sucks worse). A full blast to the eyes, mouth, and nose is rather debilitating and not something you ever want to do again. You wash off and don't want to do anything else for the rest of the day besides lay down in front of a fan and try to forget the pain.

 

[billt460]

Thanks. I forgot about the overspray. The stuff is so bad it makes you puke... That sure is something to think about. Especially if it lasts an entire day!

 

[pkunk]

I just looked at a bear spray I've had for years (exp.2015) and it's 2.0%. Yes, I double checked. Wonder if it's still any good, never been fired.

 

[billt460]

Here is some 2.0% Bear Pepper Spray. (They claim this is the hottest bear formula that is allowed by the EPA). http://www.bearspray.com/bear-pepper-spray/ https://www.udap.com/mm5/product/12SO

 

[pkunk]

That's the stuff I have

Originally Posted by billt460

Here is some 2.0% Bear Pepper Spray. (They claim this is the hottest bear formula that is allowed by the EPA). http://www.bearspray.com/bear-pepper-spray/ https://www.udap.com/mm5/product/12SO

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted by bubbatime

Originally Posted by Johnny2Bad

Bear Spray is a very potent capsaicin formula, it is many times stronger than that allowed for Law Enforcement / Security / Prison

Wrong. Bear spray is very weak, and is 10 times weaker than actual police/prison pepper spray, according to this article. https://www.selfdefenseninja.com/bear-spray-vs-pepper-spray-whats-difference/

Interesting read, but the units are off I think.... this is how we lose rockets to Mars... Ninja link states:

Quote

A typical pepper spray used for self defense will have an oleoresin capsicum (OC) concentration of about 10% or higher. A typical bear spray has a oleoresin concentration of about 1 - 2 %.

Defense Technology indicates:

Quote

What is the difference between SHUs and MC%? Defense Technology® no longer recognizes Scoville Heat Units (SHUs) as a viable means to measure pungency in regards to pepper spray. Scoville Heat Units are a subjective measurement system dating back to the American Spice Trade. For years SHUs have been used as a measuring system within the pepper spray industry, resulting in confusion and a lack of confidence and consistency regarding the pungency and percentage of OC formulations. High Performance Liquid Chromatography or HPLC, is the only true way to measure the heat of a formulation. It is a scientific method and ensures consistency. This is the standard used by Defense Technology®. The finished Defense Technology® OC formulations are tested at an independent laboratory tested for the exact percentage of major capsaicinoids (MC%).

SABRE says this:

Quote

OC percentage The OC percentage only measures the amount of pepper in the formulation; it does NOT measure the heat-bearing component / strength of the formulation. By listing a higher OC percentage, some brands hope you will believe these high numbers will mean their sprays are more effective. Brands claim they contain anywhere from 2% to 20% (OC). Some brands outright misrepresent their OC percentage; it is highly unlikely that any pepper spray designed for protection against a human attacker contains more than 10% pepper (OC). ... Major Capsaicinoids (MC) are the true indicator of pepper spray strength! MC does not measure the amount of OC within the formulation. Instead, MC is the heat bearing and pain producing components of the OC. MC identifies the exact heat of the liquid deployed from your canister. The only way pepper spray manufacturers can guarantee their MC content is through High Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC) laboratory testing. The University of Utah discovered that pepper sprays fail 30% of the time if not backed by HPLC testing. Peppers are grown naturally, so their strength is determined by ever changing climatic factors such as sunlight, precipitation, soil nutrients, etc. HPLC testing is the only way to guarantee that Major Capsaicinoids remains consistent from batch to batch. Take a look at the chart below to see how SABRE Red compares to other sprays:

And offers the attached graphic as well. So it seems like there is confusion in units. 10% may align to 1.3% MC, but it doesn't appear that there's a 10% MC spray.

 

[bubbatime]

Good post JHZR2, showing up with facts to the discussion..

 

[billt460]

We're looking at 2.0 MC as a MAJOR heat factor. I can't even imagine what 20% or 30% is like. When they manufacturer this stuff, is it in 100% concentration, then diluted way down? Or is that high of a concentration level impossible to achieve in the manufacturing process?

 

[Brigadier]

If you carry a 9mm, hot FMJs are the load to carry, or some Underwood Extreme Penetrators[would be my choice for a 9mm against bruins]. Otherwise:

 

[Astro14]

The pictured S&W would be among my top choices for a self-defense handgun where bear were involved. Hard to beat a .44 magnum performance. To be honest, however, having shot a 4" .44, it's not an easy gun to handle. Not everyone would be able to accurately place shots with it, certainly the follow up shots would be difficult for some. And they sure wouldn't want to spend time at the range with it...

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Originally Posted by Astro14

The pictured S&W would be among my top choices for a self-defense handgun where bear were involved. Hard to beat a .44 magnum performance. To be honest, however, having shot a 4" .44, it's not an easy gun to handle. Not everyone would be able to accurately place shots with it, certainly the follow up shots would be difficult for some. And they sure wouldn't want to spend time at the range with it...

Until you've shot a 460 S&W for the first time.