Testing Idea Regarding Ecore Ribcage

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But even those effects will be insignificant when the system is fully enveloped and the engine is 20 to 50 times as restrictive. Look at a filter as a very big muffler with a very ...incredibly small tail pipe that's a mile long. Except for some unicorns, any difference will be way transient inside the can.
 
By now we all should know what kind of PSID a filter can produce. In the last 6 months there have been plenty of real test data curves posted. Most filters will produce about 5 PSID with around 10 to 12 GPM of hot oil. If the engine's oil pump is low performance and only puts out 5 or 6 GPM max, then the pressure drop across a typical filter will only be around 2.5 to 3 PSID with hot oil.

The filter see's every GPM of flow the engine's oil pump can force down the engine's "throat" (ie, oiling system circuit).
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
But even those effects will be insignificant when the system is fully enveloped and the engine is 20 to 50 times as restrictive.


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Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
But even those effects will be insignificant when the system is fully enveloped and the engine is 20 to 50 times as restrictive.


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Actually, there where a few threads that showed a typical engine is around 15 times more restrictive than the filter.
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Originally Posted By: river_rat
Seems about right. But either way, the cage doesn't matter.
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+1 ... either does a metal center core poked full of holes.
 
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
By now we all should know what kind of PSID a filter can produce. In the last 6 months there have been plenty of real test data curves posted. Most filters will produce about 5 PSID with around 10 to 12 GPM of hot oil. If the engine's oil pump is low performance and only puts out 5 or 6 GPM max, then the pressure drop across a typical filter will only be around 2.5 to 3 PSID with hot oil.

The filter see's every GPM of flow the engine's oil pump can force down the engine's "throat" (ie, oiling system circuit).


By now we can pluck test bench data and pretend that they reflect real "in use" data with all of the bona fide flow curves that we've seen ..but that's about it.

..and yes, a unicorn or two may produce any amount of PSID @ 12gpm ..which is a unicorn in anything that would be considered "typical" ..even @ the redline for the vast majority of engines discussed ...anywhere ..anytime. The notion that the average guy inquiring about PSID is driving a said vehicle with the aforementioned unicorn is totally unrealistic and really doing them a disservice to imply that those statistics ever apply to them without boldly qualifying them.

..but some like unicorns ..and want you to have one too.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
By now we all should know what kind of PSID a filter can produce. In the last 6 months there have been plenty of real test data curves posted. Most filters will produce about 5 PSID with around 10 to 12 GPM of hot oil. If the engine's oil pump is low performance and only puts out 5 or 6 GPM max, then the pressure drop across a typical filter will only be around 2.5 to 3 PSID with hot oil.

The filter see's every GPM of flow the engine's oil pump can force down the engine's "throat" (ie, oiling system circuit).


By now we can pluck test bench data and pretend that they reflect real "in use" data with all of the bona fide flow curves that we've seen ..but that's about it.


Of course the bench testing represents "in use" data. Why wouldn't it? ... I'd like to hear your explanation. If 12 GPM of hot oil flows through the PureONE filter that Purolator tested, regardless if it's in a car or on a bench test machine, the PSID will follow the same Flow vs. PSID curve. Flow and the oil's viscosity properties is what's causing the PSID. It's not magical.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..and yes, a unicorn or two may produce any amount of PSID @ 12gpm ..which is a unicorn in anything that would be considered "typical" ..even @ the redline for the vast majority of engines discussed ...anywhere ..anytime. The notion that the average guy inquiring about PSID is driving a said vehicle with the aforementioned unicorn is totally unrealistic and really doing them a disservice to imply that those statistics ever apply to them without boldly qualifying them.

..but some like unicorns ..and want you to have one too.


So you think all these guys racing their street driven Z06s don't hit redline at the track. Believe me, most of those engines are operating near redline for the majority of the time on the track.

Obviously, it was something Purolator probably wanted to prove to themselves, and to the Vette community knowing many Vette owners race their cars on weekends. Why do you think I got a prompt response on a so called "unicorn" issue. There's a whole lot of unicorns cruising around ... you just can't realize it.
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(sigh- okay- we're due for an episode - I'll play-it is very amazing in its sophistication and intricacy )

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So you think all these guys racing their street driven Z06s don't hit redline at the track. Believe me, most of those engines are operating near redline for the majority of the time on the track.



...errr..and how many ZO6 owners are there in the entire planet ..and how many of them ask here about PSID and bypass settings ..here?? Just what do you "imagine" is the typical engine of the typical person asking- here?




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Of course the bench testing represents "in use" data. Why wouldn't it?


How do you know this? How did Purolator simulate the engine ..or substantially greater restriction down stream??

Remember what Wix said about PSID? They treated it like some hysterical person just asked them if the sky was falling. "PSID?? PSID?? It should be about 2PSID..."

..but I have a suspicion that you'll have forgotten that tid bit.

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There's a whole lot of unicorns cruising around ... you just can't realize it.


You're right. I see a herd of them right there up above. A world where everyone drives a ZO6 ..
 
I got the filters to do the test and I am just debating to use some used oil ( i have some oil castrol 5-30 with just 20 miles ) or use new cheapo oil. However the test will have to wait cause I gouged my left foot open at work. Was carrying some heavy gear and my foot slipped and hit some metal that went right through my boot.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

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So you think all these guys racing their street driven Z06s don't hit redline at the track. Believe me, most of those engines are operating near redline for the majority of the time on the track.


...errr..and how many ZO6 owners are there in the entire planet ..and how many of them ask here about PSID and bypass settings ..here?? Just what do you "imagine" is the typical engine of the typical person asking- here?


Quit a few Vette owners in the world actually. I'm sure the thought has crossed their minds now and then wondering if the oil filter is going to flow enough or cause the bypass valve to open while in racing use. Guess I was the first to get some real factual test data directly from a filter manufacture to prove one way or the other what's going on in that department.

It's not the only car that could have a pretty high oil pump output. For some reason, you believe that every car on the road has an oil pump the puts out a dribble of oil, and an oiling system that can't flow much oil volume. Well, you're just wrong in your thinking.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Originally Posted By: Busa
Of course the bench testing represents "in use" data. Why wouldn't it?


How do you know this? How did Purolator simulate the engine ..or substantially greater restriction down stream??

Remember what Wix said about PSID? They treated it like some hysterical person just asked them if the sky was falling. "PSID?? PSID?? It should be about 2PSID..."

..but I have a suspicion that you'll have forgotten that tid bit.


Because it doesn't matter if the filter is flowing 12 GPM with its outlet at 80 psi and the inlet 85 psi, or if the outlet is at 0 psi (Atm pressure) and the inlet is at 5 psi. In both cases (and all cased in between) there is still 12 GPM flowing through the filter at some xyz viscosity, and that is all there needs to be to create the PSID across the filter. Go study some fluid dynamics and you'll discover this yourself, as I'm sure anything I say that doesn't coincide with your thinking will automatically be dismissed as fact.

This is what WIX actually said [ http://www.wixfilters.com/productinformation/gff_oilfilters.html ]

"Resistance to oil flow
WIX full-flow oil filters for automotive applications use arch-pleated, prescription-blended media. When new, the media with a maximized number of pleats has less than 2 psi pressure drop when filtering oil at a rate of 4 g.p.m. at normal operating temperature. This low initial restriction to oil flow protects the vital engine parts more effectively."

Go look at the PureONE Flow vs. PSID graph shown below and see that it's very similar at this flow point. What's your point?

Actually, the WIX is MORE RESITIVE that the PureONE based on this data.

PureONE PL14006 test data from Purolator Senior Engineer:

PureOneflowdata.jpg


Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Originally Posted By: Busa
There's a whole lot of unicorns cruising around ... you just can't realize it.


You're right. I see a herd of them right there up above. A world where everyone drives a ZO6 ..


As said earlier, there are many high performance vehicles on the road that have pretty high volume oil pumps at max engine RPM. Not everyone in the world drives a 6 cylinder van that redlines at 3800 RPM and puts out 1.5 GPM max.
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Sorry to interupt: The graph is a little hard to read. See if this is better.

...Continue arguing. LOL

PureONEFlowdata-1.jpg
 
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WIX full-flow oil filters for automotive applications use arch-pleated, prescription-blended media. When new, the media with a maximized number of pleats has less than 2 psi pressure drop when filtering oil at a rate of 4 g.p.m. at normal operating temperature. This low initial restriction to oil flow protects the vital engine parts more effectively."

Go look at the PureONE Flow vs. PSID graph shown below and see that it's very similar at this flow point. What's your point?


First that you're mixing metaphors in data. You're taking what Wix said and then applying it to data presented by Purolator and extending Wix's inference in the morphing.

..but ..to that end. How many engines do you think ..out of all those produced, have a 12gpm capability. My HV application has a 9gpm limit @ 3500 rpm (probably due to internal resistance of the oil pump outlet port) and has double the vane area of the OEM.

So what would anyone sensibly conclude, with some reasonable error +/-, is my normal oil flow potential normally? About 4-5 gallons?

Now let's for a minute just say that Gary's own unicorn is atypical of more modern engines with higher revving capability and with overhead cams and whatnot ...he's FOS.

The thing is I didn't come to my conclusions on that engine, I did it on the same engine that comes in a Stealth base model ..minus 2 valves per cylinder (just to preempt his minivan rebuttal).

So, since I'll wait for you to pull bona fide (from a self created post) proof that there's some sizable majority of engines that have greater than (something around) 5500-6000rpm capability ..and that they routinely operate there ..AND that they have greater than 5+/- (closer to 5 than anywhere near 12gpm) ...then the notion of PSID being inconsequential is MORE valid than it being important, right??

Just in case I lost you.

Out of all engines, how many come OEM with over 5500-6000+/- capability? ..or rather redline much over that?

Out of those engines, how many operate at those sustained levels routinely? Answer in "few" or "most". How many incidents of such operation would be termed "transient" ..as in like one or two on ramp episodes per day? We're talking out of the whole population, not just the vast number of ZO6 owners that are teeming like bacteria where you live.

What do you think is the closer number to the MAX volume output of MOST engine's oil pumps, 5 or 12gpm?


Let's see what your answers are to ALL of those questions. Just answer the questions. Nothing more ..nothing less.
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

So, since I'll wait for you to pull bona fide (from a self created post) proof that there's some sizable majority of engines that have greater than (something around) 5500-6000rpm capability ..and that they routinely operate there ..AND that they have greater than 5+/- (closer to 5 than anywhere near 12gpm) ...then the notion of PSID being inconsequential is MORE valid than it being important, right??


You must be living in the stone age or something. High performance engines redline over 6000 or 6500 RPM these days ... even large displacement V8s. Heck, I bet a Hyundai will even rev over 6K before hitting redline. Go do some research on modern engine technology.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Out of all engines, how many come OEM with over 5500-6000+/- capability? ..or rather redline much over that?


See above. And the guys who track their cars are running at least 80 or 90% up to redline the majority of the time on the track. You can bet these engines are putting out way more than 4 or 5 GPM when 6000+ RPM. If you recall, the Subaru thread pointed out that the 4 banger turbo Subaru had a very high volume output oil pump ... do you recall? I do.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Let's see what your answers are to ALL of those questions. Just answer the questions. Nothing more ..nothing less.


Your wasting my time once again Gary. Fact is, there are many cars that can rev and do get revved to near redline on a daily basis (what about those Euro cars on the 'bon doing 180 MPH?), and those cars can and do put out more than a few GPM of oil flow.

And to tell you the truth, I really don't know WTH your debating anymore. I think you just want to try and jerk my chain.
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You must be living in the stone age or something. High performance engines redline over 6000 or 6500 RPM these days


..and how many people, out of all people that might inquire about bypass valve activity own high performance engines? How many high performance cars are sold compared to ...heck, 4.6 Modular's? What's your redline ..and how long do you operate at it?

Track time ..do you have people lining up for a "pay as you go" like a toll booth at the local track? Are they soccer mom's and daily commuters in Civics and Malibu's? How about your average F150? Much track time for them?

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And the guys who track their cars are running at least 80 or 90% up to redline the majority of the time on the track. You can bet these engines are putting out way more than 4 or 5 GPM when 6000+ RPM.


Well, what is their flow rate? Got a link for some bona fide source? It can't be that LS? guy that was in relief from idle could it? I mean, he has a HV pump ..so we really don't know, do we?

..but I can't say one way or the other. I don't know ..but I don't think you do either. You're speculating and "wishing" and "willing" it to be so for some assumed non-fact.

I don't care one way or the other than to keep you honest and to perhaps give you a clue that this is an extremely marginal view of the driving world. You default on some assumption of ultimate/extreme/whatever that you extend through the entire plane of existence and give advice and alleged insight into the full spectrum of usage.

Have you ever once said, "For your situation, it's probably not an issue"? No, you immediately head into some would be racer mode ..where very ....very few people dwell.

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If you recall, the Subaru thread pointed out that the 4 banger turbo Subaru had a very high volume output oil pump ... do you recall? I do.


I recall it quite well. It was an exceptional situation. You probably forget that there were multiple oil pump depths (internal gear) and that THAT set up was of the highest volume. There were several of lower volume. Do you remember that? I do.
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A unicorn in a herd of common live stock.

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Your wasting my time once again Gary.


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in your case this is clearly true
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And the guys who track their cars are running at least 80 or 90% up to redline the majority of the time on the track.


So? Then ask someone if they spend 80-90% of their driving experience on the track when they ask about bypass valve activity. Otherwise the standard consumer/daily driver don't need any useless advice about the topic.

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Fact is, there are many cars that can rev and do get revved to near redline on a daily basis (what about those Euro cars on the 'bon doing 180 MPH?), and those cars can and do put out more than a few GPM of oil flow.


See anyone driving 180mph around you off the track? Does Joe Honda Civic do it. Mr. Silverado? Mr. Crown Vic?

You're giving advice to poor people in a manner like "When you get your first million..."

I really need to see the day in the life of Supe~. A daily encounter with all ZO6's and TT's and nothing under 150mph capability ..and all of them doing it on surface streets ..every highway ..all lanes open enough and never a traffic jam in the way. They have their own highways where the common cattle can't access ..cops are paid to NOT be there, and it's a US Audubon.

Oh, and they never have a cold start either. That's for common folk.
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
You must be living in the stone age or something. High performance engines redline over 6000 or 6500 RPM these days


..and how many people, out of all people that might inquire about bypass valve activity own high performance engines? How many high performance cars are sold compared to ...heck, 4.6 Modular's? What's your redline ..and how long do you operate at it?

Track time ..do you have people lining up for a "pay as you go" like a toll booth at the local track? Are they soccer mom's and daily commuters in Civics and Malibu's? How about your average F150? Much track time for them?


Since your obviously on some kind of trolling expedition, and a compete waste of cyber space on this issue, I'm just going to say there are many instances of high volume oil pumped engines on the road, and for some idiotic reason you think every car on the road is some 1965 6 banger van or some POS soccer mom van running around town at 1200 RPMs. There are really cars on the road that flow way more oil than you can actually comprehend … and it doesn’t matter if they are not the “majority” of the cars on the road. It happens, accept it, and don’t worry about us high performance guys … as you obviously can’t even comprehend the issue.

Dude, why do you think most oil filters will flow 10+ GPM? ... and did you notice Purolator tested the PL14006 all the way up to 18 GPM? If the filter manufactures didn't care about us high performance guys, they wouldn't even make filters that could flow well over 10 GPM.

You must be drinking way too much eggnog this season, as you obviously can't get your head beyond soccer mom vans and little old ladies driving their Malibus to church.
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Have you ever once said, "For your situation, it's probably not an issue"? No, you immediately head into some would be racer mode ..where very ....very few people dwell.


I've come to realize that you don't even know what you're trying to argue about anymmore. Like I said ... you're just on a chain pulling trolling expedition. You are so narrow minded on this whole subject matter that you can't even follow the disscussion, and you've locked out everything outside the "normal" grandma car on the road. So funny ....
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