Testing Idea Regarding Ecore Ribcage
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Originally Posted By: labman
Steel or Nylon end caps wouldn't add the highly efficient filtering capacity that the non woven ones do.
My concern is the seal job on the non-metal end caps. Seen some photos of pleats that were not sealed well, and this would cause dirty oil to leak past the media.
I just feel a lot better seeing the ends of the media pleats firmly potted in a big ol' bead of glue on metal end caps.
I stopped using OEM Toyota filters because they glue the ends of every pleat together. After cutting one open and seeing how easy it was to separate the glue seams, I wanted something more robust.
Steel or Nylon end caps wouldn't add the highly efficient filtering capacity that the non woven ones do.
My concern is the seal job on the non-metal end caps. Seen some photos of pleats that were not sealed well, and this would cause dirty oil to leak past the media.
I just feel a lot better seeing the ends of the media pleats firmly potted in a big ol' bead of glue on metal end caps.
I stopped using OEM Toyota filters because they glue the ends of every pleat together. After cutting one open and seeing how easy it was to separate the glue seams, I wanted something more robust.
There's also a picture on this forum of the media blown through the large opening of the cage. That might not have happened with the better support of a full center tube.
Combine that with SuperBusa's correct observations of the end caps not being completely sealed in some cases, and I can't see why anyone would want to use a filter with demonstrated failure modes.
Ed
Combine that with SuperBusa's correct observations of the end caps not being completely sealed in some cases, and I can't see why anyone would want to use a filter with demonstrated failure modes.
Ed
Originally Posted By: bigmike
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Any owners of a polymer framed pistol knows how strong polymer can be. Most often it is stronger than steel. Nothing wrong with a good polymer (or plastic) as long as its a good formulation.
My fried is a LEO in Richmond, CA and he has 300,000 rounds through is first gen Glock.
Instinct is to not trust plastic since we all remember seeing cheap and brittle bakelite type plastics. However, not all plastics are weak.
I have no issue with an E Core after shooting my poly framed handguns.
Do you expose your polymer frame pistol to 220 degrees? I think that's what people are concerned with.
Not mine, but it has been done with them before on the torture tests. People and government agencies have fired over a thousand rounds through them non stop. On a steel gun like a 1911 that would make the frame so hot it can not be held. Polymers are only susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.
Originally Posted By: Gunatics_Adler
Any owners of a polymer framed pistol knows how strong polymer can be. Most often it is stronger than steel. Nothing wrong with a good polymer (or plastic) as long as its a good formulation.
My fried is a LEO in Richmond, CA and he has 300,000 rounds through is first gen Glock.
Instinct is to not trust plastic since we all remember seeing cheap and brittle bakelite type plastics. However, not all plastics are weak.
I have no issue with an E Core after shooting my poly framed handguns.
Do you expose your polymer frame pistol to 220 degrees? I think that's what people are concerned with.
Not mine, but it has been done with them before on the torture tests. People and government agencies have fired over a thousand rounds through them non stop. On a steel gun like a 1911 that would make the frame so hot it can not be held. Polymers are only susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.
Originally Posted By: defektes
The AcDelco thread posted got me thinking: I have noticed on the Champion Ecore filters that the ribcage blocks substationally less of the filtration media. Also it is far stronger than many of the metal ones I have pulled off of other filters including old champ designs. Many here complain of the material the plastic is made of becoming brittle. I am not sure what material these rib-cages are made off but I can tell you they are not brittle nor weak.
Would the rib-cage really be a variable in how well the the oil flows through the filter or would it be the same. I am not a filter specialist I do not know these things. Would there be a viable way to test such a thing? I am very curious of this and would like the "pro" filter people to chime in and see if the ribcage is a big player in how well a filter can provide a good consistant flow to your engine; On start up and during use.
Let me know any ideas or thoughts.
Just for kicks, Figure out the TOTAL OPEN area of any center tube, slotted or round holes. Now figure out the TOTAL OPEN area of all the inlet holes in the baseplate. Now do the same for the TOTAL OPEN area of the outlet hole in the baseplate.
Here's the big kicker. What is the TOTAL OPEN area of the hole in the filter mounting stud of your engine?
So, after the media, the biggest restriction is? Let me know please.
The AcDelco thread posted got me thinking: I have noticed on the Champion Ecore filters that the ribcage blocks substationally less of the filtration media. Also it is far stronger than many of the metal ones I have pulled off of other filters including old champ designs. Many here complain of the material the plastic is made of becoming brittle. I am not sure what material these rib-cages are made off but I can tell you they are not brittle nor weak.
Would the rib-cage really be a variable in how well the the oil flows through the filter or would it be the same. I am not a filter specialist I do not know these things. Would there be a viable way to test such a thing? I am very curious of this and would like the "pro" filter people to chime in and see if the ribcage is a big player in how well a filter can provide a good consistant flow to your engine; On start up and during use.
Let me know any ideas or thoughts.
Just for kicks, Figure out the TOTAL OPEN area of any center tube, slotted or round holes. Now figure out the TOTAL OPEN area of all the inlet holes in the baseplate. Now do the same for the TOTAL OPEN area of the outlet hole in the baseplate.
Here's the big kicker. What is the TOTAL OPEN area of the hole in the filter mounting stud of your engine?
So, after the media, the biggest restriction is? Let me know please.
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The filter is a big muffler with tremendous back pressure. Stuff drops to a relative crawl passing through it.
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On the topic of polymers. They're formed/extruded/injection molded at much higher temps than your oil will see. Even PVC in extruded at about 250 to be liquid. Something like Nylon is around 550F. You can wear/abrade nylon, but inside an engine you would have a very hard time melting it. I'm sure that the polymer used is well up to any temp it will ever see in an oil bath.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The filter is a big muffler with tremendous back pressure. Stuff drops to a relative crawl passing through it.
Not at 10 or 12 GPMs. You can bet the oil is flowing pretty fast through the filter at those volumes.
The filter is a big muffler with tremendous back pressure. Stuff drops to a relative crawl passing through it.
Not at 10 or 12 GPMs. You can bet the oil is flowing pretty fast through the filter at those volumes.
Even at 20 GPM, the Ecore is an excellent oil filter design.
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Even at 20 GPM, the Ecore is an excellent oil filter design.
I think the media would want to collapse in an Ecore at 20 GPM due to the open cage design that doesn't provide total media support. You have test data showing it can withstand such flow and PSID?
Even at 20 GPM, the Ecore is an excellent oil filter design.
I think the media would want to collapse in an Ecore at 20 GPM due to the open cage design that doesn't provide total media support. You have test data showing it can withstand such flow and PSID?
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: labman
Steel or Nylon end caps wouldn't add the highly efficient filtering capacity that the non woven ones do.
My concern is the seal job on the non-metal end caps. Seen some photos of pleats that were not sealed well, and this would cause dirty oil to leak past the media.
I just feel a lot better seeing the ends of the media pleats firmly potted in a big ol' bead of glue on metal end caps.
I stopped using OEM Toyota filters because they glue the ends of every pleat together. After cutting one open and seeing how easy it was to separate the glue seams, I wanted something more robust.
You don't understand the nature of paper and other non wovens. Cut open one of your beloved Purolators. Remove the media and seal a piece of tape to it. Push on it as hard as you can. Nothing will happen. Pull it off, it will easily come loose taking the outer layer of paper with it.
If your thinking that there was a problem was right, there should have been dozens of pictures of failed filters here at first and the product driven off the market.
Originally Posted By: labman
Steel or Nylon end caps wouldn't add the highly efficient filtering capacity that the non woven ones do.
My concern is the seal job on the non-metal end caps. Seen some photos of pleats that were not sealed well, and this would cause dirty oil to leak past the media.
I just feel a lot better seeing the ends of the media pleats firmly potted in a big ol' bead of glue on metal end caps.
I stopped using OEM Toyota filters because they glue the ends of every pleat together. After cutting one open and seeing how easy it was to separate the glue seams, I wanted something more robust.
You don't understand the nature of paper and other non wovens. Cut open one of your beloved Purolators. Remove the media and seal a piece of tape to it. Push on it as hard as you can. Nothing will happen. Pull it off, it will easily come loose taking the outer layer of paper with it.
If your thinking that there was a problem was right, there should have been dozens of pictures of failed filters here at first and the product driven off the market.
Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: labman
Steel or Nylon end caps wouldn't add the highly efficient filtering capacity that the non woven ones do.
My concern is the seal job on the non-metal end caps. Seen some photos of pleats that were not sealed well, and this would cause dirty oil to leak past the media.
I just feel a lot better seeing the ends of the media pleats firmly potted in a big ol' bead of glue on metal end caps.
I stopped using OEM Toyota filters because they glue the ends of every pleat together. After cutting one open and seeing how easy it was to separate the glue seams, I wanted something more robust.
You don't understand the nature of paper and other non wovens. Cut open one of your beloved Purolators. Remove the media and seal a piece of tape to it. Push on it as hard as you can. Nothing will happen. Pull it off, it will easily come loose taking the outer layer of paper with it.
I'm talking about where the end caps seal to the media pleat edges. If the "seal" there (regardless of how it's sealed) between the edge of the media pleats and end caps is not 100%, then there is going to be unfiltered oil leaking past these areas. The PSID across the media is not going to magically seal areas that are not 100% bonded or sealed.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: labman
Steel or Nylon end caps wouldn't add the highly efficient filtering capacity that the non woven ones do.
My concern is the seal job on the non-metal end caps. Seen some photos of pleats that were not sealed well, and this would cause dirty oil to leak past the media.
I just feel a lot better seeing the ends of the media pleats firmly potted in a big ol' bead of glue on metal end caps.
I stopped using OEM Toyota filters because they glue the ends of every pleat together. After cutting one open and seeing how easy it was to separate the glue seams, I wanted something more robust.
You don't understand the nature of paper and other non wovens. Cut open one of your beloved Purolators. Remove the media and seal a piece of tape to it. Push on it as hard as you can. Nothing will happen. Pull it off, it will easily come loose taking the outer layer of paper with it.
I'm talking about where the end caps seal to the media pleat edges. If the "seal" there (regardless of how it's sealed) between the edge of the media pleats and end caps is not 100%, then there is going to be unfiltered oil leaking past these areas. The PSID across the media is not going to magically seal areas that are not 100% bonded or sealed.
I tore the endcaps of the ST3387A Ecore I cut open for photo posting and investigation. To my surprise, it took some effort.
I'm still a little uneasy about how thin and transparent the endcap was, but it was on there pretty good.
I'm running an ST16 Ecore now for a 1,500 mile ARX cycle. I'm curious to try the same endcap pull-off after it's had some hot oil through it.
I'm still a little uneasy about how thin and transparent the endcap was, but it was on there pretty good.
I'm running an ST16 Ecore now for a 1,500 mile ARX cycle. I'm curious to try the same endcap pull-off after it's had some hot oil through it.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I'm talking about where the end caps seal to the media pleat edges. If the "seal" there (regardless of how it's sealed) between the edge of the media pleats and end caps is not 100%, then there is going to be unfiltered oil leaking past these areas. The PSID across the media is not going to magically seal areas that are not 100% bonded or sealed.
Just like an ADBV doesn't seal to the end plate because it isn't bonded?
I'm talking about where the end caps seal to the media pleat edges. If the "seal" there (regardless of how it's sealed) between the edge of the media pleats and end caps is not 100%, then there is going to be unfiltered oil leaking past these areas. The PSID across the media is not going to magically seal areas that are not 100% bonded or sealed.
Just like an ADBV doesn't seal to the end plate because it isn't bonded?
Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I'm talking about where the end caps seal to the media pleat edges. If the "seal" there (regardless of how it's sealed) between the edge of the media pleats and end caps is not 100%, then there is going to be unfiltered oil leaking past these areas. The PSID across the media is not going to magically seal areas that are not 100% bonded or sealed.
Just like an ADBV doesn't seal to the end plate because it isn't bonded?
At least a ADBV that doesn't seal 100% doesn't allow dirty oil to pass by the filter media.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
I'm talking about where the end caps seal to the media pleat edges. If the "seal" there (regardless of how it's sealed) between the edge of the media pleats and end caps is not 100%, then there is going to be unfiltered oil leaking past these areas. The PSID across the media is not going to magically seal areas that are not 100% bonded or sealed.
Just like an ADBV doesn't seal to the end plate because it isn't bonded?
At least a ADBV that doesn't seal 100% doesn't allow dirty oil to pass by the filter media.
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There's no empty cavity under the base of the Ecore. The opening pressure of the ADBV presses the cartridge downward. What's to "tear off"?
Has anyone actually ever put a gasket on anything? Does it really require bonding? Well, if you really have done real work, you would know that the answer is no.
..but since even in the flimsiest of reported conditions, we've never seen one missing or torn ..slipped ..shifted ..then one would reasonably conclude that being epoxied with PC-7 would be a real waste of time.
This is really a lame objection to the Ecore ..and I don't even use them anymore. I can get ProSelects for less. If you don't like it ..you don't like it ..but there's nothing wrong with it.
Has anyone actually ever put a gasket on anything? Does it really require bonding? Well, if you really have done real work, you would know that the answer is no.
..but since even in the flimsiest of reported conditions, we've never seen one missing or torn ..slipped ..shifted ..then one would reasonably conclude that being epoxied with PC-7 would be a real waste of time.
This is really a lame objection to the Ecore ..and I don't even use them anymore. I can get ProSelects for less. If you don't like it ..you don't like it ..but there's nothing wrong with it.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There's no empty cavity under the base of the Ecore. The opening pressure of the ADBV presses the cartridge downward. What's to "tear off"?
Has anyone actually ever put a gasket on anything? Does it really require bonding? Well, if you really have done real work, you would know that the answer is no.
What are you actually talking about? But yeah, I don't like 'em.
There's no empty cavity under the base of the Ecore. The opening pressure of the ADBV presses the cartridge downward. What's to "tear off"?
Has anyone actually ever put a gasket on anything? Does it really require bonding? Well, if you really have done real work, you would know that the answer is no.
What are you actually talking about? But yeah, I don't like 'em.
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There..now that's the a valid response. Just like with Fram and the cardboard endcaps. At least there people get to whine about being gouged for the added cheapness.
I am not saying that everyone should use ecores, if you dont like them you can spend your money as you wish. Purolators are excellent filters and I have used them on many occasions. I actually have a pf61 or 62 I forget equivilant waiting for my 05 5.3l.
Now head on over to picture #6 in my cut open supertech thread. The ADBV is on there and against the media pretty good. There is not much space for the filter end cap to actually move up or down. Also that picture was taken before I took it out of the can. It was sealed evenly all the way around.
I have my reasons for hating fram gary, but I still use the ph16s cause my wallmart doesnt keep the ST16s in stock very often ! hehe got a picture of that one coming up here in a few days.
But no I am not here to sell you guys a product or anything I was just curious if the tube designs would actually help or hurt either filter types. We will see when I get the test done.
Now head on over to picture #6 in my cut open supertech thread. The ADBV is on there and against the media pretty good. There is not much space for the filter end cap to actually move up or down. Also that picture was taken before I took it out of the can. It was sealed evenly all the way around.
I have my reasons for hating fram gary, but I still use the ph16s cause my wallmart doesnt keep the ST16s in stock very often ! hehe got a picture of that one coming up here in a few days.
But no I am not here to sell you guys a product or anything I was just curious if the tube designs would actually help or hurt either filter types. We will see when I get the test done.
Originally Posted By: defektes
Would the rib-cage really be a variable in how well the the oil flows through the filter or would it be the same.
Nothing significant. The media is the real choke point. Try putting some center tubes in an oil bath (or whatever) with and without the medias on them and you will see.
Add that to the inlet and outlet holes, the 180 degree turn the oil has to make, turbulence, pushing the ADBV out of the way, and squeezing the oil between the canister and the threaded end endcap. You can pretty much disregard the cage. Techinically, it is one less obstruction, so the ad writers can put that in as a feature.
Would the rib-cage really be a variable in how well the the oil flows through the filter or would it be the same.
Nothing significant. The media is the real choke point. Try putting some center tubes in an oil bath (or whatever) with and without the medias on them and you will see.
Add that to the inlet and outlet holes, the 180 degree turn the oil has to make, turbulence, pushing the ADBV out of the way, and squeezing the oil between the canister and the threaded end endcap. You can pretty much disregard the cage. Techinically, it is one less obstruction, so the ad writers can put that in as a feature.
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