You: TESLA is so much better than legacy manufacturers, ROI, profit per car etc, etc, etc.
also you: But what about GM stock?
Tesla Drops USA Prices up to 20%
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also you: But what about GM stock?
They can afford to experiment. They sell bunch if ICE vehicles too.
In the Premium and Luxury segment, alot of buzz is that with a bit of purposeful marketing, legacy OEMs can retain their demographic by offering them a better product experience. With a smaller sales goal, higher prices, they bring a world of pain to Tesla, even with a product that is worse on paper then a Tesla.
Those are the numbers, right? I am trying to understand your question; not sure what you are asking.
If you are interested, here is Sandy Munro speaking to Tesla margins, from their indepth tear down.
EVs are gradually becoming durable goods, and today's manufacturers are focused on maximizing the profit at every stage of their existence.
This hasn't been the case with gasoline powered cars. Planned obsolescence within the powertrain has usually been only around the 13 to 17 year mark on average and about 165,000 to 235,000 miles of driving. Yes, they can and do last longer if you maintain them appropriately. Some do. Most don't.
EVs are far easier to maintain. They also allow a modularity that isn't available on gas powered vehicles. If you keep the electronic gadgetry to a minimum (like they do with many of China's current bestsellers), an EV can potentially last 25 to 40 years given recent technical developments. They can be rented and leased for longer periods of time, and owners will find them far easier to customize and upgrade.
Gasoline engines will be around for a few more decades. But make no mistake. The EV market is going to explode. Just ask anyone under 40 whether they want to own a Tesla.
This hasn't been the case with gasoline powered cars. Planned obsolescence within the powertrain has usually been only around the 13 to 17 year mark on average and about 165,000 to 235,000 miles of driving. Yes, they can and do last longer if you maintain them appropriately. Some do. Most don't.
EVs are far easier to maintain. They also allow a modularity that isn't available on gas powered vehicles. If you keep the electronic gadgetry to a minimum (like they do with many of China's current bestsellers), an EV can potentially last 25 to 40 years given recent technical developments. They can be rented and leased for longer periods of time, and owners will find them far easier to customize and upgrade.
Gasoline engines will be around for a few more decades. But make no mistake. The EV market is going to explode. Just ask anyone under 40 whether they want to own a Tesla.
I am saying when it fits your narrative, you use the argument that Tesla is just so much better, that nothing compares to it etc.
Also, when it fits your narrative, you immediately compare to pretty much worse performers.
I already told you companies focused on stock always get in trouble or disappear.
Tesla is an engineering company, and that is how I look at it and make my judgment about it.
Boeing is a perfect example if you know anything about their case.
p.s. I don't want to spend any time on whoever Sandy Munro is.
Is Tesla better? As an EV, yes. Fit and finish? No. Is Tesla for everyone? No. Same as any car.
I have always said it depends on 2 things: your use case and what you want.
For my personal use case, the Model 3 fits along with other vehicles. And I like the tech... There is a toy element, just like most expensive cars.
I am not sure what you mean about "I already told you companies focused on stock always get in trouble or disappear."
That does not make sense to me. Please elaborate. A for-profit public company's #1 priority is the wealth of the shareholders. That's their job.
Of course Tesla has engineers; don't all car companies and manufacturing companies have engineers? Are you saying that's bad?
Speaking of engineering, Sandy Munro is an automotive engineer who specializes in machine tools and manufacturing. Quite well respected in automotive circles for his expertise. I thought you might enjoy hearing an in-depth talk based on a complete tear down and examination.
I don't pull numbers out of the air. I come from a business analytics background; that's how I look at things. Tesla is a very well run company by just about any metric. Those are the numbers.
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For someone who claims to come from business analytics every 2-3 posts, you should know what I mean when I mention Boeing. Or maybe a better analogy to Tesla would be McDonnell-Douglas, and where Boeing went after.
All companies are in the business of making money. The question is how that happens. Some companies make less money per unit, but have a much more stable outlook; some thrive excessively in a certain period of time and then crash and burn. There is extensive literature on that, and you are free to look on Google scholar or JSTOR etc. You might stumble on my work too.
When I mentioned how you argue here what Tesla is or not, I did not mean what EV is.
1. Tesla is not a luxury vehicle. It is expensive, but it is not a luxury. If what Tesla offers is luxury, thanks, but I will stick to the Mercedes S500 from 1998 or BMW 750 E38 from the same time. Just bcs. it is expensive, it does not mean it is luxury.
2. No, it is not for everyone. So your constant pick-and-choose arguments: Tesla is best, just to compare it to GM and how GM is also performing poorly (as that should be an excuse) reminds me of conversations I have with my students when they want to make an argument about something, and they say: yes, but look at Venezuela. Like that is an excuse for something we do, to compare to a de facto failed state.
3. Tesla lowered 20% price, not bcs. there is some secret plan by Elon Musk, but bcs. it needs to keep going the way it was. But, it is not going. It is becoming old news. A huge part of Tesla sales is this constant hype about products and people who somehow reached adulthood by some miracle, constantly needing to be part of that trend by vehicle to feel special. Bcs. Tesla does not have anything else to offer. They are not in Formula1, Le Mans, etc. so people buy that. WHile racing events usually keep products interesting etc., people eventually got weary of Musk, and other started to offer better product. You can claim Tesla chargers ar better or whatever, truth is, it is still FAR, FAR from being practical. So, why not other vehicle? Why not vehicle that is more practical, better built etc.
Yes, I remember who he is. I watch some videos. KIA copied BMW better.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Ford got a loan though, and have been paying it back (if it's not already paid back). They didn't go bankrupt and screw their investors.Ford definitely got handouts from the Government. More than GM even. They didn't get it from the same "program" but they got the money all the same.
Did Ford Take Bailout Money Too? Yes They Did.
Whenever Chevy and Ford guys get together, the Ford fans always fall back on the phrase, "Ford didn't take bailout money." Here's the real truth behind it.www.chevyhardcore.com
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I've never bothered to figure out the exact details of who took what and who repaid what. Ford was in trouble before the other 2 and secured privates lines as well. So I'm pretty sure Ford was in worse shape before the crisis.
They were all drowning in union and retirement/pension debt too. None of them were managed all that well.
I just don't like it when people think Ford was somehow superior to the other two as if they didn't need help, that point is very clearly wrong. If they're paying it back, that's definitely a massive point in their favour. Apparently FCA had paid back 8 billion only 2 years after getting it.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/c...ons-in-bailout-loans-is-the-comeback-complete
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
AFAIK, the only one that really screwed the investors was GM. I don't think Ford was in trouble early, my understanding was that their management was just more prophetic in terms of where things were headed and secured money privately while it was still doable, even going as far as mortgaging the "brand".
When FIAT bought out Chrysler from bankruptcy, IIRC, that took care of most of the debts.
On the loan front, at least the government one:
and:
So they had paid most of it back on schedule. Can't find the current status, but they were supposed to have it all paid back in 2022.
The only option for Chrysler was a sale. The decision was to let go of Chrysler, either die or sell. They managed to sell it.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yeah, the Daimler->Cerberus transition did NOT leave them in very good shape. They were very lucky that FIAT decided to acquire them.
Price raised by $500 on the Model Y AWD LR. 
insideevs.com
Tesla Model Y Long Range Price Increases Slightly
In 2022, as soon as we wrote an article about Tesla's prices, the company raised them again. Is this the beginning, or will prices remain within the tax credit?
insideevs.com
Another price drop…
• Model Y AWD: $46,990 (was $49,990)
• Model Y Long Range: $49,990 (was $52,990)
• Model Y Performance: $53,990 (was $56,990)
• Model 3 RWD: $39,990 (was $41,990)
electrek.co
The Model Y Long Range went from $65,990 to $49,990 in under 4 months
• Model Y AWD: $46,990 (was $49,990)
• Model Y Long Range: $49,990 (was $52,990)
• Model Y Performance: $53,990 (was $56,990)
• Model 3 RWD: $39,990 (was $41,990)
Tesla slashes price again, with brand-new cars now starting under $40,000
Tesla has implemented another wave of price cuts across its Model 3 and Model Y vehicles. It’s the second time...
electrek.co
The Model Y Long Range went from $65,990 to $49,990 in under 4 months
Good post but would like to address some things.
EVs right now, being new are over engineered. Once firm lifecycles can be determined by the manufacturers component quality will be reduced for profits AND sales affordability. Most EVs are a rich mans cars right now except for some offerings from GM and Nissan. and most all are compact cars, in a country where SUVs rule.
No car will last 25 to 40 years anymore than a gasoline car will. The manufacturers will make sure of it and the public is not going to be driving around in cars with loose worn out suspension, peeling paint, worn out seats, broken digital displays, antique electronics. Not happening.
The Lithium Battery EV market will never be more than 30% saturation on Americas roadways, never and no one in this forum will be alive to see it ever happen, unless another electric source such as fuel cell becomes reasonable. Lithium is the equal of lead acid EVs from the early 1900s. The majority is not going to go back in time and inconvenience of charging a lithium car. This you will find out in less than 5 years.
BTW oil case you do not know I am not against EVs but I do believe in keeping the whole idea "honest"
Heck, not kidding, in the last week I just bought a high end lithium powered EM (electric mower) *LOL* Cant wait to cut the lawn!
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No, they don't offer that. I paid $47k with no tax credit for our Model 3 which is now $39.9k with current numbers. Hell it makes me want to buy another for myself, but I'm not borrowing money for a car with these interest rates.
Model 3 & Y custom order estimates have shifted to December, indicating the backlog of orders is possibly drying up. I’m quite certain this happened last December too, leading to those huge price cuts in January. I wonder if that may happen again?
It happens in the stock market every day. The difference is it won't matter, even to those who bought cheaper. Because they'll all depreciate to nothing in time.