Teen Killed by Honda Odyssey Folding Seat

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Originally Posted By: Garak
This is the one thing I wonder. If the seat isn't set up just so, and can tip with someone reaching backwards, what's going to happen in a collision?


I think if there were issues with these things flopping backwards in rear end collisions causing injuries, we would have heard about it by now. Especially when you consider most of these foldable rear 3rd row mini van seats are usually occupied by children. Of which there is a very low tolerance of injury to. As I said there are close to, if not over a million of these vehicles on the road. So any problems as far as the thing being poorly designed would have surfaced by now.

Perhaps someone with a Honda Odyssey can chime in. From the looks of these things the front of the seat itself locks on to some type of bar or bracket to secure it into position. (Obviously this one wasn't). It's like a manually adjustable front seat in that regard. Once you get it into the position you want, you release the adjustment lever and rock back and forth to be sure it's locked into place.

We'll never know exactly what this kid did or didn't do to cause this. But it appears the seat was not broken or faulty, and was in good working order. It just wasn't locked into position, allowing it to flop rearward, trapping him. Thus making it nothing more than a tragic, preventable accident.
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/21/bod...nivan-seat.html


This article and related articles are showing the boy was failed by a systems problem with the first responders. The personnel, the technology, the administrators. The officers don't seem to be taking the call very seriously. The computer software is unreliable. Dispatchers complaining about overtime. Officers blaming the dispatch. The dispatch blaming the computer and the administration.
 
Originally Posted By: tigrpal
Originally Posted By: 4WD
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/21/bod...nivan-seat.html


This article and related articles are showing the boy was failed by a systems problem with the first responders. The personnel, the technology, the administrators. The officers don't seem to be taking the call very seriously. The computer software is unreliable. Dispatchers complaining about overtime. Officers blaming the dispatch. The dispatch blaming the computer and the administration.


I would imagine right about now this kids parents are having a non stop barrage of attorneys ringing their phone off the hook, and melting their front doorbell. Look for taxes to go up in this county after the police are all done paying off the law suits.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: SeaJay
In all honesty, how many of you posters with the "the kid did something and it is his own fault he got killed" would have known that reaching under the seat (or whatever it is that he actually did do) could lead to a fatal injury?


This is what the kid....... "actually did do". He wasn't, "reaching under the seat". He inverted himself trying to climb over it while it was not properly locked in the upright position. Please explain how this can somehow be translated into being Honda's fault?




I know that physics isn't your strong suit.

But leaning over (an entirely predictable action) and having the seat topple makes it a design issue...as soon as you have multiple warning signs around exactly that, you have acknowledged that you are aware of it.

Do you then think that the emergency services should get a free kick on their part ?

YOU pay them...demand better.
 
Failures at ALL levels … like bp Macondo (engineering design and operations execution/surveillance) …
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Failures at ALL levels … like bp Macondo (engineering design and operations execution/surveillance) …


You really want to compare the biggest oil spill in history, to a 16 year old kid getting himself stuck, because he failed to lock a folding seat into place?
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Failures at ALL levels … like bp Macondo (engineering design and operations execution/surveillance) …


You really want to compare the biggest oil spill in history, to a 16 year old kid getting himself stuck, because he failed to lock a folding seat into place?


Ever heard of the Swiss cheese incident model ?

No, not at the Cafeteria, the multiple levels of failure that occur to make a dead body.

Ever heard of physics ?

Just follow instructions and nothing bad will ever happen ????
 
And what you identified as the culpable party VERY early on in this thread

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4725456/Re:_Teen_Killed_by_Honda_Odyss#Post4725456

is another layer in the cheese holes that lead to a fatality.

Do you agree ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Ever heard of physics? Just follow instructions and nothing bad will ever happen ????


Ever heard of common sense? I didn't think so. In this case if he had displayed any, and "followed instructions", the seat would have been properly locked and nothing would have happened.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Ever heard of physics? Just follow instructions and nothing bad will ever happen ????


Ever heard of common sense? I didn't think so. In this case if he had displayed any, and "followed instructions", the seat would have been properly locked and nothing would have happened.


And why do you say (with the benefit of 20:20 armchair quarterback hindsight), what "common sense" is ?

What training did the kid have in the specifics of the latching mechanism ?

You are stuck in the '70s, apportioning blame on the victim, in what's clearly a complex situation.

More from James Reason, is the culpability model...looking at the kid that you want to blame.

risk-figure1.jpg


It's relatively simple, so I'll walk you through it.
1) did the victim intend the outcome ? - Yes, follow the down arrow.
2) Were the outcomes intendned ? - CLeraly no, back up to the second box at the top.
3) under the influence ? - No, but probably wouldn't change anything
4) Knowingly violated operating procedures ? - No
5) Substitution test - similarly qualified people would do the same ? - Of course people do it every day.

So the victim ends up in an unfortunate situation where Honda have designed a system that MAY trap/kill if all of the swiss cheese holes line up.

think about it, what do warning signs mean that they found out in pre production testing ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
What training did the kid have in the specifics of the latching mechanism ? You are stuck in the '70s, apportioning blame on the victim, in what's clearly a complex situation.


"Training"?..... "Complex situation"?.... Are you F'ing serious? You're so packed full of B.S. you could over complicate a cup of coffee. Stop trying to treat everything as a Moon shot. (And yeah, we did that in the 70's). This kid was old enough to operate that vehicle on public roads..... But you think he wasn't "trained" enough to check if the seat was locked before he tried to climb over it? As a direct result he is dead because of his actions, coupled with his lack of common sense. And somehow it makes you feel better to blame Honda, the cops, and Swiss cheese. Jesus!
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
What training did the kid have in the specifics of the latching mechanism ? You are stuck in the '70s, apportioning blame on the victim, in what's clearly a complex situation.


"Training"?..... "Complex situation"?.... Are you F'ing serious? You're so packed full of B.S. you could over complicate a cup of coffee. Stop trying to treat everything as a Moon shot. (And yeah, we did that in the 70's). This kid was old enough to operate that vehicle on public roads..... But you think he wasn't "trained" enough to check if the seat was locked before he tried to climb over it? As a direct result he is dead because of his actions, coupled with his lack of common sense. And somehow it makes you feel better to blame Honda, the cops, and Swiss cheese. Jesus!


LOL...did your machinery have guards, or were you supposed to "just use common sense" ?

Why did it have guards when you were infallible ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
LOL...did your machinery have guards, or were you supposed to "just use common sense" ? Why did it have guards when you were infallible ?


"Machinery"? "Guards"? What does this have to do with a kid who was too careless to read the owners manual? You know, that thing every car comes with. And you are constantly criticizing people for reading and following? If he had he would be alive today. In spite of Honda not offering a "Training Program" to operate their folding seats. I guess their Swiss cheese doesn't have so many holes.
 
bill...I'll type this very very slowly, so as to avoid losing you (yet again)...reconsidering, I'm typing even slower now.

kid reached over the seat to get sporting equipment...just like thousands do every day.

A combination of errors, by multiple parties, from initial design, to emergency responders ended up with him being dead...that's the swiss cheese model.

Any number of people reach over the seat and don't die...why was this one different ?

All the other factors that lead to his death.

Did your previous employer install guards on the machinery that you used to fill the scrap parts bin ?...when "common sense" tells a machinist to "not get hurt"
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
LOL...did your machinery have guards, or were you supposed to "just use common sense" ? Why did it have guards when you were infallible ?


"Machinery"? "Guards"? What does this have to do with a kid who was too careless to read the owners manual? You know, that thing every car comes with. And you are constantly criticizing people for reading and following? If he had he would be alive today. In spite of Honda not offering a "Training Program" to operate their folding seats. I guess their Swiss cheese doesn't have so many holes.


Lets be real about the owner's manual. Most of them are a few hundred pages. Perhaps BITGOG'ers are more likely to read the thing from front to cover, but the average car owner only opens it up when he/she can not figure out how something works. As a pretty talented general contractor once said to me "only read the instructions if all else fails".
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
As I said there are close to, if not over a million of these vehicles on the road. So any problems as far as the thing being poorly designed would have surfaced by now.


http://abc13.com/automotive/honda-recalls-800000-odyssey-minivans-over-seats/2670741/

Quote:
About 800,000 Honda Odyssey minivans are being recalled for problems with their seat latches.

The automaker says the vehicle's second-row seats can be adjusted side-to-side or removed.

But Honda says those seats can also tip forward after braking if they are not properly latched.

The recall covers Odyssey minivans made between 2011 and 2017.

Honda says 46 people have been injured because of the issue.


Different row, same issue, and isn't 800,000 awfuly close to your million ?

46/800,000 equals ???

Quote:
The company is trying to educate owners on how to properly latch the seats until it comes up with a repair plan.


That, in James Reason's swiss cheese model is called an Administrative control. Highly reliant on both the delivery of training and the compliance of the trained, plus the identification of everyone who needs to be trained getting said training.

Question...and it gets back to my earlier one about your statement about what the kid should have known...how did Honda identify everyone who needed to be "educated" in the above recall, and ensure that they got the gist, and signed off and were assessed in this "education" of owners prior to fixing the defect ?
 
Originally Posted By: SeaJay

Lets be real about the owner's manual. Most of them are a few hundred pages. Perhaps BITGOG'ers are more likely to read the thing from front to cover, but the average car owner only opens it up when he/she can not figure out how something works. As a pretty talented general contractor once said to me "only read the instructions if all else fails".


Manuals in the glovebox are the type of "administrative" control that nearly guarantee that you haven't got the message across.

"Use Common Sense"...White line...rumble strip...concrete barrier...you drive past them and use them every day.

Are all progressions of the risk management model, and bill's employers employed guarding on the machinery, as the Administrative controls don't stop people getting hurt.
 
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