Teen Killed by Honda Odyssey Folding Seat

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Any number of people reach over the seat and don't die...why was this one different ?


Because HE didn't lock it properly. Not the cops. Not the 911 operator. Not Honda. Not Swiss cheese. Not the BP oil spill. Not some machine shop in never never land without guards. Or any other silly, asinine, stupid excuse you can manage to come up with. All in some half witted, lame attempt to try and shift blame to someone or something else, and shag personal responsibility in the process.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Any number of people reach over the seat and don't die...why was this one different ?


Because HE didn't lock it properly. Not the cops. Not the 911 operator. Not Honda. Not Swiss cheese. Not the BP oil spill. Not some machine shop in never never land without guards. Or any other silly, asinine, stupid excuse you can manage to come up with. All in some half witted, lame attempt to try and shift blame to someone or something else, and shag personal responsibility in the process.


Do you know that HE was the last person to move it ?

The correct statement is that it was not locked properly when HE leaned over the back (the action which is undoubtedly repeated hundred,s, or thousands of times every day), and was one of the multiple factors (swiss cheese model) in the sequence of events that lead to his death...

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: billt460
As I said there are close to, if not over a million of these vehicles on the road. So any problems as far as the thing being poorly designed would have surfaced by now.


http://abc13.com/automotive/honda-recalls-800000-odyssey-minivans-over-seats/2670741/

Quote:
About 800,000 Honda Odyssey minivans are being recalled for problems with their seat latches.

The automaker says the vehicle's second-row seats can be adjusted side-to-side or removed.

But Honda says those seats can also tip forward after braking if they are not properly latched.

The recall covers Odyssey minivans made between 2011 and 2017.

Honda says 46 people have been injured because of the issue.


Different row, same issue, and isn't 800,000 awfuly close to your million ?

46/800,000 equals ???

Quote:
The company is trying to educate owners on how to properly latch the seats until it comes up with a repair plan.


That, in James Reason's swiss cheese model is called an Administrative control. Highly reliant on both the delivery of training and the compliance of the trained, plus the identification of everyone who needs to be trained getting said training.

Question...and it gets back to my earlier one about your statement about what the kid should have known...how did Honda identify everyone who needed to be "educated" in the above recall, and ensure that they got the gist, and signed off and were assessed in this "education" of owners prior to fixing the defect ?


Imagine that a recall! They don't issue recalls unless there's a problem. Sad this poor kid had to die. It won't bring him back but I hope Honda has to pay up in very big way.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Quote:
....The recall covers Odyssey minivans made between 2011 and 2017....


http://wemakeitsafer.com/vehicle-recall/Honda-Odyssey-Recall-2492193-2004#RecalledProductInformation

The kid was in a 2004. They were never recalled for any rear seat problems. Try again, unless you prefer to stop digging. It would make it a lot easier on you.

 

[Shannow]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/21/bod...nivan-seat.html

Other end of the failure model...

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/21/bod...nivan-seat.html

Other end of the failure model...


The cops along with the dispatcher, had nothing to do with the seat not being properly latched. As far as their response, or lack there of, they had nothing to do with what this kid did, or failed to do, that put his life in jeopardy to begin with. If the police end up in court, no one is going to be arguing rear seat locks on Honda Odyssey's. Keep digging and typing, you're getting deeper with every post. Next thing you'll be trying to come up with ways to protect these guys:

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/21/bod...nivan-seat.html

Other end of the failure model...


The cops along with the dispatcher, had nothing to do with the seat not being properly latched. As far as their response, or lack there of, they had nothing to do with what this kid did, or failed to do, that put his life in jeopardy to begin with. If the police end up in court, no one is going to be arguing rear seat locks on Honda Odyssey's. Keep digging, you're getting deeper with every post. Keep typing. Next thing you'll be trying to come up with ways to protect these guys:








bullt460 at his best...

Now why didn't your employers trust you to have common sense, and installed all that guarding ???

Anyway, back to topic...there were a number of errors, over time that lead to a kid dying.
The exact combination is (obviously) rare in sequence...that's Reason's swiss cheese model.
The result is tragic.

Every one who owned a slice of that window to fatality needs a wake-up call.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
...there were a number of errors, over time that lead to a kid dying.
The exact combination is (obviously) rare in sequence....


So "rare" in fact, it appears this kid is the only one to ever manage to off himself in a Honda Odyssey rear seat.... That has managed to be safely operated on the road over the last 14 years without a recall in regards to injury or death from anyone using it. Which proves it's a pretty safe design, or else he was a pretty careless and ignorant kid. Which in itself isn't a crime.... Until you try to blame someone or something else for it.

 

[Shannow]

Why did your employer install guards on the machinery ?

 

[Shannow]

Did your employer have a first aid station ?

 

[Shannow]

Yes to both the above, because they understood that humans make errors.

errors at every level.

And this fatality was the culmination of a whole string of them...initiated by reaching over a seat back.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
...... And this fatality was the culmination of a whole string of them...initiated by, FAILING TO CHECK AND SECURE THE REAR SEAT BEFORE REACHING OVER IT.


FIFY.

 

[brages]

So... we have a 2005 Odyssey, and the 3rd row seats sometimes do not latch to the floor properly. There is a panel with the latches on it that pops out as you raise the seat and its motion is controlled by a cable. Our cable is a little too long, I guess, so you have to push the latch panel aft just a little bit to make them lock in.

So I see a chance that this is a design defect.

 

[brages]

Here is a poster on an Odyssey forum with the same problem I had: http://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-2005-20...latch-down.html

I would bet the teen's van was suffering from the same defect. The seat shouldn't be able to tip back unless the operator is manually operating the release lever and the weight of the seat itself should force it to latch when upright. So unless the deceased teen grabbed the release lever (doubtful), the seat was probably malfunctioning.

 

[billt460]

http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/AOD0404OM/enu/OD0404OM.PDF

Straight from the 2004 Honda Odyssey Owners Manual:

Page 94

"Push the back of the seat down over
the floor hooks. Make sure the seat
is securely locked in place. A seat
that is not locked in place could fly
around and cause injury in a sudden
stop or crash."

Page 95

"To reinstall the seat, hook the front
of the seat to the floor, then push the
back into the locks. Make sure both
the front and the back of the seat are
securely latched before driving."

Page 97

"Pull up on the handle on the seatback,
and pull the seat-back
upright with the strap. Make sure
the seat is securely locked in place."

3 separate times, on 3 separate pages. Can't make it any clearer than that. Which brings us right back to this guy again.

 

[thrace]

To correct some errors.
Originally Posted By: billt460
http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/OM/AH/AOD0404OM/enu/OD0404OM.PDF

Straight from the 2004 Honda Odyssey Owners Manual:

Page 94

"Push the back of the seat down over
the floor hooks. Make sure the seat
is securely locked in place. A seat
that is not locked in place could fly
around and cause injury in a sudden
stop or crash."
Wrong. Page 94 refers to 2nd row seat. Yes this 2nd row seat can jam and fail to latch even with close monitoring. Remember third row seat, not 2nd row seat involved in accident.
Quote:
Page 95

"To reinstall the seat, hook the front
of the seat to the floor, then push the
back into the locks. Make sure both
the front and the back of the seat are
securely latched before driving."

Wrong. Page 95 refers to 2nd row seat.
Quote:
Page 97

"Pull up on the handle on the seatback,
and pull the seat-back
upright with the strap. Make sure
the seat is securely locked in place."
At last, a relevant quote about third row involved in accident.

Quote:
3 separate times, on 3 separate pages. Can't make it any clearer than that. Which brings us right back to this guy again.
Three is not correct.

 

[billt460]

How many times does an owners manual have to mention it is important to make sure folding seats are securely locked down, before it sinks into a persons head who possesses enough common sense to operate a motor vehicle?

Originally Posted By: thrace
Three is not correct.


Then you need to learn to count.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: thrace
Wrong. Page 94 refers to 2nd row seat. Yes this 2nd row seat can jam and fail to latch even with close monitoring. Remember third row seat, not 2nd row seat involved in accident..... Wrong. Page 95 refers to 2nd row seat. At last, a relevant quote about third row involved in accident. Three is not correct.


Through all of this I just couldn't help but think this kid was either unlucky, just plain careless and dumb, or all of the above. But honestly, after listening to you trying to argue such completely idiotic points like you have, I'm surprised there haven't been more like him. Not because of Honda putting a bad product on the market. But rather because how you have enlightened me as to just how dumb people can act when they put their minds to it, and actually think they are being smart. With posts like yours, that cop and lumberjack are becoming not only more believable. But the accepted norm.

As much as it pains me to say it, perhaps Shannow is right after all. With the way this world is dumbing down at it's present rate, perhaps more idiot proofing is required. Seeing as we appear to be producing such a bumper crop of idiots, completely void of any and all common sense. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

 

[refaller]

You guys are tough. The kid made a mistake and paid a mighty high price. Calling him names sames unnecessary. My wife likes to carry lots of junk in the van. She often doesn't think about making sure the bar the seats lock onto are clear. Her obnoxious husband always double checks the seats before carrying people. Plus, I am way to large to get trapped there. Regardless, all involved have to feel awful.

ref