still confused: what oil now in a old HiPo 440 engine from 1970?

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6o4o

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I read the whole oil text that was posted here

http://63.240.161.99/motoroil/

and it was very interesting.
I do own a 500HP Mopar 440 engine that I use for cruising but also like to drive at WOT or sometimes go to race it on the 1/4 mile!

I got a HV oilpump and my engine builder told me he build the engine with tight clearances but wouldn't tell me what type of oil to use.

So after a few tries I sticked with full synthetic Kendall 5W30. I get 35PSI when hot idling and 65PSI when hot >1800RPM up to 6000RPM where I got the limit.
A guy here is telling me that I will destroy my engine pretty soon, that an engine like that is supposed to run Castrol 10W60 or something as thick as it! That such a thin oil won't have the viscosity needed, that at 212F the 22cS of the 10W60 is double as the 11cS of the 5W30 and that would mean double protection!

Is he right? Should I really stick to a 10W60 oil or should I go like written in this article above, a thinner oil is better?

I am pretty confused here... the guy that was telling me that is also a pretty experienced guy with some race experience.

By the way, when driving around and a few times at WOT the engine oil never got hotter than 195F-212F in the pan. Sure, I didn't drove it yet over a mountain, I will do this soon, but when should I consider to switch to a thicker oil? When it gets hotter than 212F?

Thank you for any helpful info with background!
 
You own a 440 in Switzerland? That in itself is amazing! WOT - THAT would get attention.

You read ALL the Dr. HAAS writings, and you still have questions.
smile.gif
Not surprised.

The bottom line really is: You need the oil viscosity your engine needs, nothing thicker, nothing thinner.

I don't suppose you drive the car in the winter so I think a 15W-40, preferably a synthetic (for faster start up flow) would be fine. You should get a UOA on the Kendall to see how it is doing for you. That would talk to you better than "a guy".
 
quote:
Originally posted by 6o4o:
A guy here is telling me that I will destroy my engine pretty soon, that an engine like that is supposed to run Castrol 10W60 or something as thick as it! That such a thin oil won't have the viscosity needed, that at 212F the 22cS of the 10W60 is double as the 11cS of the 5W30 and that would mean double protection!
Click to expand...
Thicker oil doesn't necessarily give you more protection, especially if the bearing clearances are on the low side, or "tight" as some call it. In fact, you can prevent an oil wedge from forming properly if the oil is too thick for the clearances. If your engine's clearances are anywhere near the stock factory values, a quality XXw-40 should provide all the viscosity you need.

A more important concern for you should be ZDDP depletion if you have a flat-tappet high-perf cam with high valve spring pressures. In brief, synthetic oils may provide extreme high and low temp protection, but you may not necessarily count on doing extended drain intervals with them.

Since you're in Switzerland, I'm not sure what available to you, but a ACEA rated A3/B4-04 XXw30 or XX-40 should work nicely if you don't extend the OCI.

By the way I spent a couple weeks in Switzerland attending the Montreux Jazz Festival some years ago. Had a blast, met a lot of great people there. I enjoyed your country very much. If I was wealthy, I'd retire there.
 
Do not go >40wt oil not needed, As posted here to protect your flat tappet HP cam I would stick with "old" style higher ZN oil I'd use a good "truck" oil common here is 15/40 like Delo or rotella that also is good for very low oil viscosoty shear.
bruce
 
If possible do a uoa on the kendall. The pressure is good and I believe you will find it is doing a great job. Keep a synthetic in it for they have a lot of heat buildup after shutdown depending on how hard it was run.
 
What types of oil can you buy in Switzerland?

What Temps in the Winter and Summer?

If you do drive it only in the Summer time, I would use a 10-40 or 20-50 quality oil with a good zddp additive. The 10-60 might work well for Summertime use in a Hi-Po Engine.

I am a Mopar man and am currently running 30wt full synthetic in my 318 and 10-30 in my 400, but they are stock.
 
thanks guys for the comments! Oh well, here are a few mopars and 440's (we just had a moparmeeting last week, some pics from last years are on www.moparnats.ch ) I do own a 72 Roadrunner GTX 440-Auto original TX9 black with B5 blue interior. THAT is the rar part of it here in Switzerland. I think it's the only of it's own here.
Ah ok, the Montreux Jazz festival was just a few weeks ago! I wanted to go but missed it...
But anyway, to get back to the oil...

I just drive the car in summer, yes. I would say the coldest temperatur it will see/saw when driving is/was around 50F. After that I put it back in the garage, I got the heater out so it's not fun like that when it's so cold
smile.gif


We get many different oils here. The whole Kendall series:

http://www.oelbrack.ch/de/kd/Motoro_402.asp

Motorex, the swiss oil.

Castrol SLX, Castrol racing products like the 10W60 or 0W40 : http://www.castrol.com/castrol/subsection.do?categoryId=82917153&contentId=6007214

Valvoline. Mobile and others. Sheel Rotella and all those we don't get. I broke my engine in with Valvoline 10W40 for diesel cars and put a whole bottle of GM E.O.S. in it. It did very well.

Now I always put 1/3 bottle of GM E.O.S in it to get sure I got enough ZDDP (and hopefully not to much?!) in this 5W30 since I don't trust any of those today oils. I change the oil after a season in spring, that's about every 2000-3000miles.

To be honest: me or none of my friends ever heard of a UOA or VOA over here in Europe. And IF that exists, that would probably costs a fortune! How much does this test costs in the USA? I was already thinking to send that over by airmail, takes about 1 week and shouldn't cost that much, since they probably just need a little bit of this oil right?
But it really would be a good idea. Also the 5W50 from Kendall sounds interesting. I would also test the Castrol 10W60 that is supposed to be for racing cars! I wonder WHAT type of racings cars conderning the ZDDP in it!?

I will ask my engine builder again. He just told me that he got the clearances on the tight side. He makes race engines, so I don't know why he did that. I would think that a race engine wants rather big clearances to get more oil between the bearing and the part? But I just saw that I got a higher idle pressure than now (that is already pretty high) with the 15W40 so that's why I got down to 5W30 but now I was told that this oil won't hold...
 
quote:
Originally posted by 6o4o:
But I just saw that I got a higher idle pressure than now (that is already pretty high) with the 15W40 so that's why I got down to 5W30 but now I was told that this oil won't hold...
Click to expand...
That HV oil pump is what's driving the pressure up. At least it's better than not enough pressure.

I'm guessing you use the GT-1 SYNTHETIC BLEND SAE 5W-30? Good thing you've been adding EOS since that's SM/GF-4 rated oil.

I'd try the KENDALL GT-1 Full Synthetic SAE 5W-40. The 40°C viscosity is a lot less than the 15w40 so the oil pressure won't be ridiculously high upon start-up. It also has API SL-CF, ACEA A3-02 B3-98(Issue 2) B4-02, VW 500.00 502.00 505.00, DaimlerChrysler 229.3, BMW Long Life 98 ratings, along with a 3.8 HTHS. You might even be able to do without the EOS if you keep the OCI under 5,000 KM.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde65:
How about some 5W-40 Valvoline Synpower? I looked at a bottle the other day and it had the CF diesel rating on it.
Click to expand...
CF is not enough. If you look at the data sheet, there is no more zddp in Synpower than any other SM rated motor oil. For the U.S., a good choice for an old muscle care would be as Bruce stated above, Chrvron Delo or Shell Rotella. These are rated SL/CI4. I believe the "4" makes it heavy duty. CF or CI or whatever is for very light duty diesel like an F250. Not sure what Switzerland has comparable to SL/CI4, but be sure it is dual rated for both gasoline and diesel engines.

The EOS on a passenger car oil (he should use and ACEA A3) will be fine. There is a VOA of EOS on this site. I think zinc is around 8000 ppm, so a third of a bottle would raise him about 200 ppm if it is a 15 oz bottle or 400 ppm (better) if it's a 32 oz bottle.
 
I wonder if Specialty Formulations SX-UP wouldn't be worth a look?

http://www.specialtyformulations.com/


>>>We had a request to see the elemental analysis for SX-UP from Specialty Formulations. The elements reported are averaged over 5 different lab reports and rounded.

Please recognize that there is more to SX-UP than just these elements. As per our PDS, we also use many ashless organic compounds (not shown on elemental analysis, of course) and agents such as rust inhibitors, Friction Modifiers, Anti-Oxidants, viscosity index improvers, surfactants, metal deactivators for copper (copper corrosion inhibitors), detergents, dispersants, etc. The base oils are PAO's and esters ("Quad-Esters").

Anything less than 10 ppm was ignored.


Molybdenum - 1400 ppm (Friction Reduction, AW, AO)
Boron - 500 ppm (AW, FM)
Tin - 12 (AW)
Phosphorus - 1500 (AW)
Zinc - 2900 (AW)
Calcium - 4200 (Detergent, AW, FM)
Magnesium - 250 (Detergent)
Silicon - 8 (Anti-foamant), rule violation just for Shannow.

TBN 19.3

KV @100 C - 16.5

This product was originally developed for engine oils in muscle and classic cars from approx. 1955 to about 1980 in order to boost the additive levels of current SF/SH oils to approx. API SD equivalent AW status. The original SD oils had ZDDP levels approximately equivalent to today's HDEO oils.<<<
 
First: ask the builder what he would use. Good race and performance builders are more oil savvy than you think.

If this engine was "rolled tight" by the builder, then a 30 weight might be just fine. Ask him how he spec'ed out the ring tension, though.

Since the seals are likely fresh, you should also consider a full synthetic in whatever viscosity you decide upon. It will help on the valvetrain loads, especially with a modified cam profile.

Otherwise, on a stocker or mildly modified street block, I look to a 15W-40 HDEO, or even M1 15w-50 if it's recently been resealed. But being so close to Germany, you've likely got some excellent alternative choices right there.

While the lousy stock valve covers on the 440 were a PITA to keep from weeping all over the place, this engine is otherwise not too stressful on its lube. 500 hp is actually on the more conservative side of its ultimate capabilities. But a maxed-out Ford 427 OHC still whips its butt.
 
quote:
I look to a 15W-40 HDEO, or even M1 15w-50 if it's recently been resealed. But being so close to Germany, you've likely got some excellent alternative choices right there.
Click to expand...
I have to wonder why some keep insisting he use a 15w40 HDEO with an engine that tight. If he decides to go that route I hope he takes it easy when that engine is cold.
 
Good point 427Z06. Hopefully HDEO comes in thinner grades in Switzerland. I can get HDEO in 10w30 quarts locally (Motorcraft).
 
quote:
Originally posted by 6o4o:
I got a HV oilpump and my engine builder told me he build the engine with tight clearances but wouldn't tell me what type of oil to use.
Click to expand...
It sounds to me like a 5W-30 will be best with 1350ppm of zinc if the cam is aggressive. I had a 383 that sucked the pan dry with a HV oil pump at high RPM back in the day. It windowed the block. I've since learned that more isn't better in almost anything that has to do with the engine.
 
guys, I really have NO idea what all this API SL-CF, ACEA A3-02 B3-98(Issue 2) etc. etc. means!
That sounds like chinese to me!
frown.gif


But I found this, I think that's the VOA of my Kendal 10W30 oil I got:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi
?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000251

So the Zinc is 1060.. is that the ZDDP? How much ZDDP should I have then to have a good oil so I know how much GM E.O.S I have to add? 1350 as you wrote? They wrote it's bad that there is no Barium?

GM EOS VOA:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000251

It has 6290 zinc. So to boost the 5quarts of my oil to 1350 I would need to add about 0.25 quarters for GM E.O.S if my calculations are right.

I will try to do an oil analysis after I change the oil at the end of this season AND also do an oil analysis of this called so good Castrol 10W60.

By the way, I got 234* at 0.050* and 0.54" lift with 1.5 rockers on that cam, but want to upgrade to a bigger one.
 
I would run nothing short of 20w50 in your extremely high tolerance, locomotive engine you got there.

PS - and include an additive that has most of the elements that appear on the periodic table
tongue.gif
 
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