Stick with M1 EP or Try M1 AFE?
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Originally Posted By: buster
Quote:
Mobil actually has three separate synthetic tiers: a base tier with Mobil Super Synthetic; a premium tier with Mobil 1; and an "ultimate" tier with Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy and Mobil 1 Extended Performance full-synthetic motor oils filling that niche.
http://www.noln.net/features/feature3-1_0411.php
You're really going to counter my presentation of Exxon's own data with a quote from their "retail market advisor" (that spells outside ad agency to me)?
I don't question that they may wish to market AFE as a premium brand. The data says you sacrifice Anti-wear additive and high temp performance for thinner start ups and very slightly better fuel economy. That's OK. All designs are compromises.
Quote:
Mobil actually has three separate synthetic tiers: a base tier with Mobil Super Synthetic; a premium tier with Mobil 1; and an "ultimate" tier with Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy and Mobil 1 Extended Performance full-synthetic motor oils filling that niche.
http://www.noln.net/features/feature3-1_0411.php
You're really going to counter my presentation of Exxon's own data with a quote from their "retail market advisor" (that spells outside ad agency to me)?
I don't question that they may wish to market AFE as a premium brand. The data says you sacrifice Anti-wear additive and high temp performance for thinner start ups and very slightly better fuel economy. That's OK. All designs are compromises.
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Originally Posted By: Tones
EP is not worth the extra money for your OCI. I run the AFE in my vehicles. Either the 5W Mobil 1 classic or the 0W AFE are great bang for the buck.
EP at walmart- $26.97
Regular M1- $24.97
AFE- $24.97
The EP really isnt much more than M1 or AFE. only $2 per 5qts.
if you like the EP keep using it, but giving AFE a try is worth a shot, you may like it more. Tones is correct AFE and Regular M1 are the better buy for a 7500 OCI, but if you prefer EP then i wouldnt sweat $2.
EP is not worth the extra money for your OCI. I run the AFE in my vehicles. Either the 5W Mobil 1 classic or the 0W AFE are great bang for the buck.
EP at walmart- $26.97
Regular M1- $24.97
AFE- $24.97
The EP really isnt much more than M1 or AFE. only $2 per 5qts.
if you like the EP keep using it, but giving AFE a try is worth a shot, you may like it more. Tones is correct AFE and Regular M1 are the better buy for a 7500 OCI, but if you prefer EP then i wouldnt sweat $2.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
From what I've read on this site mazda's new 0w-20has a very high viscosity index,and really high moly count.
Go to caterham's profile and search his comments. That guy knows this stuff really well. His posts are getting me off my thick is better thinking since he posts fact based on data,not feelings or butt dyno.
Perhaps pm him,or he may even answer in this thread.
I've been reading quite a bit about the Toyota and the Mazda 0/20. Very intriguing...
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
OTOH, PP would also be a very good oil to try, and would be the equal of either M1 flavor in your use.
Does PP come in 0/30? When you say it's the equal of M1, what do you base that on? I have noticed a lot of folks on this board seem to run Pennzoil... Not many folks run it in my area.
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
What's your motivation for moving away from the M1 5/30?
What are your expectations of the new oil? (What will it do that the M1 will not)
My vote is stick with what you are doing and do a couple UOA's before changing.
Just intrigued with the idea of a 0/30 and the possibility of better cold start wear control (although, here in Memphis, we don't get much very cold weather - rare for it to drop into the high teens for more than a day or three, better performance, and marginally better fuel economy).
As I said, I'm reluctant to switch away from the EP. It's more just curiosity to see how much differently my engine would run with a 0/30, especially going into winter.
I like your suggestion - I have ordered a couple of UOA kits, and will post them up when I get the results here in a couple months.
Originally Posted By: Tones
EP is not worth the extra money for your OCI. I run the AFE in my vehicles. Either the 5W Mobil 1 classic or the 0W AFE are great bang for the buck.
It costs me three dollars more per OC for the EP vs. standard M1. The three dollars is worth it to me for the warm and fuzzy feeling it gives me
...and the braggin' points with my buddies for using EP!
Anyone aware of any negatives that would exist by using EP for a 7500 mi. OCI?
(I don't have a problem with extending that OCI if my UOA results are promising.)
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
AFE comes in a 0W-30 flavor and that's what you should use.
Looking at the UOAs here, the AFE seems superior to vanilla M1 and probably equal to EP.
Not true. XOM has three levels of anti-wear additives for their non-racing street oils. For example, they publish phosphorus and zinc additive levels:
High performance (0W-40, 5W-50)= 1000/1100
EP/standard (5W-20, 5W-30)= 800/900
AFE (0W-20, 0W-30)= 650/750
That's about a 20% step down in add pack content for each step. There is NO QUESTION that Mobil1's AFEs contain the weakest add packs of any of their oils. This doesn't mean they are bad oils it just means do not mistake them for "extended" range oils like the others. They are designed for max fuel economy, nothing more. So, if you like EP, do not assume that you don't give up anything going to their 0W oils. Hint: there are better fortified 0W oils on the market.
I noticed that yesterday as I was browsing through the PDS's for the different M1 varieties.
What about the new "organic" add-packs that I've been reading about over in the VOA section that don't show up in VOAs...such as what's used in some of the new API-SN/GF-5 dino oils (e.g. VWB)? Possible that XOM could be using that technology for the AFE to compensate for the lower levels of traditional additives?
AFE is the newest "family" of (retail) formulations for M1, right?
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
AFE comes in a 0W-30 flavor and that's what you should use.
Looking at the UOAs here, the AFE seems superior to vanilla M1 and probably equal to EP.
Not true. XOM has three levels of anti-wear additives for their non-racing street oils. For example, they publish phosphorus and zinc additive levels:
High performance (0W-40, 5W-50)= 1000/1100
EP/standard (5W-20, 5W-30)= 800/900
AFE (0W-20, 0W-30)= 650/750
That's about a 20% step down in add pack content for each step. There is NO QUESTION that Mobil1's AFEs contain the weakest add packs of any of their oils. This doesn't mean they are bad oils it just means do not mistake them for "extended" range oils like the others. They are designed for max fuel economy, nothing more. So, if you like EP, do not assume that you don't give up anything going to their 0W oils. Hint: there are better fortified 0W oils on the market.
Correction here. AFE has the same high temp and low temp ratings according to XM as EP, and higher fuel rating than both EP and reg M1. AFE also is rated higher by XM than reg M1 in the high temp and low temp areas. This is according to the back of the bottle. As for OCI, AFE has the standard 10K warranty, the same as reg M1. Yes, AFE oils are designed for max fuel MPG, but their base stock is very good with a MRV @ -40C of 9200(0-20) showing an outstanding base stock with few equals.
Interesting...can you enlighten me on what "MRV" is?
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
EP>M1>AFE
What are you saying here? That EP is better than std. M1, and std. M1 is better than AFE?
From what I've read on this site mazda's new 0w-20has a very high viscosity index,and really high moly count.
Go to caterham's profile and search his comments. That guy knows this stuff really well. His posts are getting me off my thick is better thinking since he posts fact based on data,not feelings or butt dyno.
Perhaps pm him,or he may even answer in this thread.
I've been reading quite a bit about the Toyota and the Mazda 0/20. Very intriguing...
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
OTOH, PP would also be a very good oil to try, and would be the equal of either M1 flavor in your use.
Does PP come in 0/30? When you say it's the equal of M1, what do you base that on? I have noticed a lot of folks on this board seem to run Pennzoil... Not many folks run it in my area.
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
What's your motivation for moving away from the M1 5/30?
What are your expectations of the new oil? (What will it do that the M1 will not)
My vote is stick with what you are doing and do a couple UOA's before changing.
Just intrigued with the idea of a 0/30 and the possibility of better cold start wear control (although, here in Memphis, we don't get much very cold weather - rare for it to drop into the high teens for more than a day or three, better performance, and marginally better fuel economy).
As I said, I'm reluctant to switch away from the EP. It's more just curiosity to see how much differently my engine would run with a 0/30, especially going into winter.
I like your suggestion - I have ordered a couple of UOA kits, and will post them up when I get the results here in a couple months.
Originally Posted By: Tones
EP is not worth the extra money for your OCI. I run the AFE in my vehicles. Either the 5W Mobil 1 classic or the 0W AFE are great bang for the buck.
It costs me three dollars more per OC for the EP vs. standard M1. The three dollars is worth it to me for the warm and fuzzy feeling it gives me
Anyone aware of any negatives that would exist by using EP for a 7500 mi. OCI?
(I don't have a problem with extending that OCI if my UOA results are promising.)
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
AFE comes in a 0W-30 flavor and that's what you should use.
Looking at the UOAs here, the AFE seems superior to vanilla M1 and probably equal to EP.
Not true. XOM has three levels of anti-wear additives for their non-racing street oils. For example, they publish phosphorus and zinc additive levels:
High performance (0W-40, 5W-50)= 1000/1100
EP/standard (5W-20, 5W-30)= 800/900
AFE (0W-20, 0W-30)= 650/750
That's about a 20% step down in add pack content for each step. There is NO QUESTION that Mobil1's AFEs contain the weakest add packs of any of their oils. This doesn't mean they are bad oils it just means do not mistake them for "extended" range oils like the others. They are designed for max fuel economy, nothing more. So, if you like EP, do not assume that you don't give up anything going to their 0W oils. Hint: there are better fortified 0W oils on the market.
I noticed that yesterday as I was browsing through the PDS's for the different M1 varieties.
What about the new "organic" add-packs that I've been reading about over in the VOA section that don't show up in VOAs...such as what's used in some of the new API-SN/GF-5 dino oils (e.g. VWB)? Possible that XOM could be using that technology for the AFE to compensate for the lower levels of traditional additives?
AFE is the newest "family" of (retail) formulations for M1, right?
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
AFE comes in a 0W-30 flavor and that's what you should use.
Looking at the UOAs here, the AFE seems superior to vanilla M1 and probably equal to EP.
Not true. XOM has three levels of anti-wear additives for their non-racing street oils. For example, they publish phosphorus and zinc additive levels:
High performance (0W-40, 5W-50)= 1000/1100
EP/standard (5W-20, 5W-30)= 800/900
AFE (0W-20, 0W-30)= 650/750
That's about a 20% step down in add pack content for each step. There is NO QUESTION that Mobil1's AFEs contain the weakest add packs of any of their oils. This doesn't mean they are bad oils it just means do not mistake them for "extended" range oils like the others. They are designed for max fuel economy, nothing more. So, if you like EP, do not assume that you don't give up anything going to their 0W oils. Hint: there are better fortified 0W oils on the market.
Correction here. AFE has the same high temp and low temp ratings according to XM as EP, and higher fuel rating than both EP and reg M1. AFE also is rated higher by XM than reg M1 in the high temp and low temp areas. This is according to the back of the bottle. As for OCI, AFE has the standard 10K warranty, the same as reg M1. Yes, AFE oils are designed for max fuel MPG, but their base stock is very good with a MRV @ -40C of 9200(0-20) showing an outstanding base stock with few equals.
Interesting...can you enlighten me on what "MRV" is?
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
EP>M1>AFE
What are you saying here? That EP is better than std. M1, and std. M1 is better than AFE?
A guy just posted a 7090-mile UOA for an '06 Tacoma (same truck as mine) with the M1 EP.
Says he has 300,000+ miles:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785934#Post2785934
Beautiful.
Says he has 300,000+ miles:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785934#Post2785934
Beautiful.
Originally Posted By: john_pifer
Interesting...can you enlighten me on what "MRV" is?
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
EP>M1>AFE
What are you saying here? That EP is better than std. M1, and std. M1 is better than AFE?
MRV is a low temp viscosity test--check the PDS for the AFE products. Unfortunately, XOM chooses to publish this data only on those oils. Be careful comparing different weights as they are tested at different temps.
"Better" depends on your objective for your specific application. What I've attempted to demonstrate by using XOM's own data, is that they have significantly reduced two of the known anti-wear additives in the AFE oils. The only reason I can imagine them doing this is that this reduction must help them achieve the design objectives of these oils, namely, slightly lower cold viscosities and slightly better fuel economy. If these last two objectives are your targets in choosing an oil, then AFE is "better" for your specific application (in your mind anyway). BITOG has always worshipped higher add packs. Can lower levels of additives be made up by different base oils? IDK the factual answer to that question but I suspect that nothing can exactly replace the affect of removing 20% zinc and Phos, two of the traditional AW additives.
You have been using the oil that M1 markets as their "best" offering. If you read the Q&As on their website, they proclaim it as "better" than any other oil and they charge you for it. You are willing to pay for it and you get something for that additional cost. If M1 were going to use a better base stock, wouldnt you think they would do that for their best oil for which they get a premium in the markerplace? I am simply saying, 'don't change and expect the same results' because it is formulated differently than their other oils. Another interesting point is that if you use the website's oil selection guide, it will always offer you an EP product. This tells me that M1 is confident that their 5W oils will perform satisfactorily in any cold weather you are likely to encounter.
Interesting...can you enlighten me on what "MRV" is?
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
EP>M1>AFE
What are you saying here? That EP is better than std. M1, and std. M1 is better than AFE?
MRV is a low temp viscosity test--check the PDS for the AFE products. Unfortunately, XOM chooses to publish this data only on those oils. Be careful comparing different weights as they are tested at different temps.
"Better" depends on your objective for your specific application. What I've attempted to demonstrate by using XOM's own data, is that they have significantly reduced two of the known anti-wear additives in the AFE oils. The only reason I can imagine them doing this is that this reduction must help them achieve the design objectives of these oils, namely, slightly lower cold viscosities and slightly better fuel economy. If these last two objectives are your targets in choosing an oil, then AFE is "better" for your specific application (in your mind anyway). BITOG has always worshipped higher add packs. Can lower levels of additives be made up by different base oils? IDK the factual answer to that question but I suspect that nothing can exactly replace the affect of removing 20% zinc and Phos, two of the traditional AW additives.
You have been using the oil that M1 markets as their "best" offering. If you read the Q&As on their website, they proclaim it as "better" than any other oil and they charge you for it. You are willing to pay for it and you get something for that additional cost. If M1 were going to use a better base stock, wouldnt you think they would do that for their best oil for which they get a premium in the markerplace? I am simply saying, 'don't change and expect the same results' because it is formulated differently than their other oils. Another interesting point is that if you use the website's oil selection guide, it will always offer you an EP product. This tells me that M1 is confident that their 5W oils will perform satisfactorily in any cold weather you are likely to encounter.
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Just use EP... Who cares if you pay a few more dollars or even decide to drain it at 7500 miles. Its your engine...
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Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
AFE comes in a 0W-30 flavor and that's what you should use.
Looking at the UOAs here, the AFE seems superior to vanilla M1 and probably equal to EP.
Not true. XOM has three levels of anti-wear additives for their non-racing street oils. For example, they publish phosphorus and zinc additive levels:
High performance (0W-40, 5W-50)= 1000/1100
EP/standard (5W-20, 5W-30)= 800/900
AFE (0W-20, 0W-30)= 650/750
That's about a 20% step down in add pack content for each step. There is NO QUESTION that Mobil1's AFEs contain the weakest add packs of any of their oils. This doesn't mean they are bad oils it just means do not mistake them for "extended" range oils like the others. They are designed for max fuel economy, nothing more. So, if you like EP, do not assume that you don't give up anything going to their 0W oils. Hint: there are better fortified 0W oils on the market.
I posted that the UOA forum should be consulted.
You posted that the additive levels were different.
I never mentioned the additive levels, only the wear metals seen in UOAs.
A factor may be that AFE uses a higher quality blend of basestocks than does vanilla M1 and possibly EP.
AFE does have low temperature performance that would indicate a superior blend of basestocks, with less Grp III and more Grp IV and/or Grp V than either the regular product or EP.
It may be that in order to achieve acceptable wear performance in what is a thinner oil, AFE needed better basestocks than regular M1 or EP.
AFE also probably uses friction modifiers we don't see in the VOAs/UOAs we all use as a reference.
As a thinner oil, AFE offers some marginal fuel economy benefits as well as better start up performance at really low temperatures.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
AFE comes in a 0W-30 flavor and that's what you should use.
Looking at the UOAs here, the AFE seems superior to vanilla M1 and probably equal to EP.
Not true. XOM has three levels of anti-wear additives for their non-racing street oils. For example, they publish phosphorus and zinc additive levels:
High performance (0W-40, 5W-50)= 1000/1100
EP/standard (5W-20, 5W-30)= 800/900
AFE (0W-20, 0W-30)= 650/750
That's about a 20% step down in add pack content for each step. There is NO QUESTION that Mobil1's AFEs contain the weakest add packs of any of their oils. This doesn't mean they are bad oils it just means do not mistake them for "extended" range oils like the others. They are designed for max fuel economy, nothing more. So, if you like EP, do not assume that you don't give up anything going to their 0W oils. Hint: there are better fortified 0W oils on the market.
I posted that the UOA forum should be consulted.
You posted that the additive levels were different.
I never mentioned the additive levels, only the wear metals seen in UOAs.
A factor may be that AFE uses a higher quality blend of basestocks than does vanilla M1 and possibly EP.
AFE does have low temperature performance that would indicate a superior blend of basestocks, with less Grp III and more Grp IV and/or Grp V than either the regular product or EP.
It may be that in order to achieve acceptable wear performance in what is a thinner oil, AFE needed better basestocks than regular M1 or EP.
AFE also probably uses friction modifiers we don't see in the VOAs/UOAs we all use as a reference.
As a thinner oil, AFE offers some marginal fuel economy benefits as well as better start up performance at really low temperatures.
Originally Posted By: pbm
If I had to choose between regular Mobil 1 5w30 and 0w30 AFE I'd go with the 0w30 AFE. Of course I'm not into extending my OCI beyond 7 or 8K...
Thanks for the contribution. Care to elaborate?
If I had to choose between regular Mobil 1 5w30 and 0w30 AFE I'd go with the 0w30 AFE. Of course I'm not into extending my OCI beyond 7 or 8K...
Thanks for the contribution. Care to elaborate?
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You posted that the additive levels were different.
[Backed up by manufacturer's data. You posted:]
"A factor may be that..."
"and possibly..."
"that would indicate..."
"It may be that..."
"AFE also probably uses..."
All I'm interested in is learning some facts about these oils. This thread tells me that there is a lot of myth surrounding them.
You posted that the additive levels were different.
[Backed up by manufacturer's data. You posted:]
"A factor may be that..."
"and possibly..."
"that would indicate..."
"It may be that..."
"AFE also probably uses..."
All I'm interested in is learning some facts about these oils. This thread tells me that there is a lot of myth surrounding them.
From the back of an M1 bottle:
AFE vs EP? Whichever one is less expensive... Both you could use and never tell the difference.
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You posted that the additive levels were different.
[Backed up by manufacturer's data. You posted:]
"A factor may be that..."
"and possibly..."
"that would indicate..."
"It may be that..."
"AFE also probably uses..."
All I'm interested in is learning some facts about these oils. This thread tells me that there is a lot of myth surrounding them.
I think that the facts are to be found in a series of UOAs, not in the published metallic additive levels.
We have no idea what basestock blends and non-metallic additives these oils have.
We can only speculate.
Based upon the performance AFE has shown in a number of UOAs posted in that forum, there is more to this oil than you'll see looking at the XOM PDS.
If metallic additive levels were the only measure of an oil, everyone who could find the data would be using either PP or PU, although both of these oils show consistently good UOAs as well.
I've had a couple of very good UOAs using PP myself.
I wish I had done a UOA of the third run of AFE I did in the '99 Accord.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You posted that the additive levels were different.
[Backed up by manufacturer's data. You posted:]
"A factor may be that..."
"and possibly..."
"that would indicate..."
"It may be that..."
"AFE also probably uses..."
All I'm interested in is learning some facts about these oils. This thread tells me that there is a lot of myth surrounding them.
I think that the facts are to be found in a series of UOAs, not in the published metallic additive levels.
We have no idea what basestock blends and non-metallic additives these oils have.
We can only speculate.
Based upon the performance AFE has shown in a number of UOAs posted in that forum, there is more to this oil than you'll see looking at the XOM PDS.
If metallic additive levels were the only measure of an oil, everyone who could find the data would be using either PP or PU, although both of these oils show consistently good UOAs as well.
I've had a couple of very good UOAs using PP myself.
I wish I had done a UOA of the third run of AFE I did in the '99 Accord.
Originally Posted By: john_pifer
Originally Posted By: pbm
If I had to choose between regular Mobil 1 5w30 and 0w30 AFE I'd go with the 0w30 AFE. Of course I'm not into extending my OCI beyond 7 or 8K...
Thanks for the contribution. Care to elaborate?
Well the back label gives regular Mobil1 2 check marks for everything (except 15K OCI's) and it gives AFE 3 check marks for high temp., low temp., and fuel economy so I had assumed it was a bit better...
Originally Posted By: pbm
If I had to choose between regular Mobil 1 5w30 and 0w30 AFE I'd go with the 0w30 AFE. Of course I'm not into extending my OCI beyond 7 or 8K...
Thanks for the contribution. Care to elaborate?
Well the back label gives regular Mobil1 2 check marks for everything (except 15K OCI's) and it gives AFE 3 check marks for high temp., low temp., and fuel economy so I had assumed it was a bit better...
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