Solutions for DI Engines?

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
MMO is designed to be burned in the combustion chamber.
ATF isn't, and will likely CAUSE more carbon that it'll cure anything.


Exactly. Gary liked to experiment, and his pictures were impressive to say the least.

 

[NewC6]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
^^How many miles on the Caddy?^^ Do you have any UOA reports to post? Just wondering that's all.



I have a fully loaded 3.6DI CTS as well...most of you know that and that my posted UOA's were great with none of the fuel dilution spoken of. My car now has 48k trouble free miles and my dad has the same car with the mileage. I do spray a full can of intake cleaner thru the intake with engine running before each oil change as a preventative measure in case all this DI worrys were to be true.

Glad to hear this as I just picked up a loaded 2010 CTS with the 3.6. What oil are you using?

 

[johnachak]

I have a fully loaded 3.6DI CTS as well...most of you know that and that my posted UOA's were great with none of the fuel dilution spoken of. My car now has 48k trouble free miles and my dad has the same car with the mileage. I do spray a full can of intake cleaner thru the intake with engine running before each oil change as a preventative measure in case all this DI worrys were to be true.
[/quote]


Nice, do you just spray it into the air filter housing opening into the throttle body or do you take the housing off and spray directly into the MASS airflow sensor area?

 

[JoeWGauss]

Folks can do whatever they want but they have to realize that using UNAPPROVED products in your engine MIGHT VERY WELL VOID YOUR NEW CAR WARRANTY!

 

[johnachak]

[/quote]
Glad to hear this as I just picked up a loaded 2010 CTS with the 3.6. What oil are you using? [/quote]

Use it in good health! I use M1 5w 30 but I wouldn't hesitate to use Pennzoil Platinum. I have 3 changes of M1 and 1 of Platinum in my stash.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
MMO is designed to be burned in the combustion chamber.
ATF isn't, and will likely CAUSE more carbon that it'll cure anything.


Considering TONS of old timers run ATF in the fuel to....guess what? Yup, that is right, clean deposits with no apparent damage during that time.

I have to say that your statement is a good attempt at random justification but still fails in the science world. There is as much "real world testing" supporting the ATF as the cleaner as there is MMO.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: johnachak

I have a fully loaded 3.6DI CTS as well...most of you know that and that my posted UOA's were great with none of the fuel dilution spoken of. My car now has 48k trouble free miles and my dad has the same car with the mileage. I do spray a full can of intake cleaner thru the intake with engine running before each oil change as a preventative measure in case all this DI worrys were to be true.



Nice, do you just spray it into the air filter housing opening into the throttle body or do you take the housing off and spray directly into the MASS airflow sensor area?[/quote]


Easier than all that. Take off the engine cover and right at the base of the intake manifold - where the air duct connects you will see a little PVC pipe going to a fitting. Simple remove that pipe and spray into that hole. Works great because you don't have to take much apart and the car will run since the MAF and all are still connected. Just have someone keep the engine running about 2-2500rpm and spray away. When done, take off the air duct and clean around the throttle plate if dirty.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: NewC6
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
^^How many miles on the Caddy?^^ Do you have any UOA reports to post? Just wondering that's all.



I have a fully loaded 3.6DI CTS as well...most of you know that and that my posted UOA's were great with none of the fuel dilution spoken of. My car now has 48k trouble free miles and my dad has the same car with the mileage. I do spray a full can of intake cleaner thru the intake with engine running before each oil change as a preventative measure in case all this DI worrys were to be true.

Glad to hear this as I just picked up a loaded 2010 CTS with the 3.6. What oil are you using?



I use Mobil 1 5W/30. But you can use any approved synthetic you choose. I just like Mobil 1- always used it in everything plus it came in the car.

 

[FZ1]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Never,Never,Never,stick foreign objects in you eye or in your car!!(MMo).


That's a very broad statement! Almost every manufacturer i know of over the last decades has recommended some sort of additive to clear some issue at one time or another. The list includes top engine cleaners, lubes, transmission additives, upper cyl lube, ps additive etc. BMW even highly recommends a fuel injection cleaner IIRC its made for them by Redline and is the same as Sl-1.
This is an excellent product that really keeps injectors clean long term. When used in directed amounts it should prevent any dirty injectors over the life of the car.

You statement paints with a pretty broad brush and IMHO is a little short sighted, IMO there is nothing wrong with keeping parts in peak working order warranty or not.

As far as 10/100 warranty what happens after 100K?
Buy new injectors at 300-400 per x4 plus labor when it could have been prevented in the first place. Not to mention the ever declining performance.
As I said,the op has a new car with a 10/100,000 warranty. He needs to do nothing but comply with the warranty requirements. Gimmee a break,your own website states "Harsh chemicals can damage injectors." You should check it out,sometime.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: dwendt44
MMO is designed to be burned in the combustion chamber.
ATF isn't, and will likely CAUSE more carbon that it'll cure anything.


Considering TONS of old timers run ATF in the fuel to....guess what? Yup, that is right, clean deposits with no apparent damage during that time.

I have to say that your statement is a good attempt at random justification but still fails in the science world. There is as much "real world testing" supporting the ATF as the cleaner as there is MMO.


I'll believe real world testing over some bogus lab reports, especially those posted on sites who sell different products. Sometimes lab reports are nothing more than sales hype with little to no meaning in real world applications. There are a lot of products that come to mind here, no point in me bashing them at this stage of the discussion.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Gimmee a break,your own website states "Harsh chemicals can damage injectors." You should check it out,sometime.


Redline and other PEA based cleaners are not harsh to the fuel injectors used in the way they are intended to be, mixed in the fuel in small doses.

I see people trying to clean them by putting pure MEK, acetone, and other sorts of chemicals in the tank that they purchase bulk and use in large quantity's trying to clean dirty injectors. Some of these can damage injectors, pumps, o rings and seals etc. I certainly would not use something like one popular solvent based FI cleaner in anything on a regular basis.

Some older injectors do better with an oil based additive because they are prone to internal corrosion accelerated even further by ethanol e.g. old Bosch units like those used in the early VW Vanagons.
Without knowing the type of injector i cant responsibly recommend which would be a better cleaner on a website. I talk to the owners of the injectors and give them a recommendations personally. Otherwise that would be painting with to broad a brush also.
As a business i don't want to advertise or promote products by name or chemical composition on my site, that could open a can of worms i don't need.
I speak here at BITOG as a individual not only Hurst Injector.

Your point about the warranty is honestly really neither here or there.
Yes you could run it and do nothing. Decreased engine performance and efficiency over 10 years or 100K is not a warranty issue.
If someone is keeping the car a few years then getting rid of it for another new one then i agree completely.
But for many 100K is just the beginning and they would like to get much more life out of the car. In this case good maintenance when the car is young will go a long way in keeping maintenance cost down in the long run.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Gimmee a break,your own website states "Harsh chemicals can damage injectors." You should check it out,sometime.


Redline and other PEA based cleaners are not harsh to the fuel injectors used in the way they are intended to be, mixed in the fuel in small doses.

I see people trying to clean them by putting pure MEK, acetone, and other sorts of chemicals in the tank that they purchase bulk and use in large quantity's trying to clean dirty injectors. Some of these can damage injectors, pumps, o rings and seals etc. I certainly would not use something like one popular solvent based FI cleaner in anything on a regular basis.

Some older injectors do better with an oil based additive because they are prone to internal corrosion accelerated even further by ethanol e.g. old Bosch units like those used in the early VW Vanagons.
Without knowing the type of injector i cant responsibly recommend which would be a better cleaner on a website. I talk to the owners of the injectors and give them a recommendations personally. Otherwise that would be painting with to broad a brush also.
As a business i don't want to advertise or promote products by name or chemical composition on my site, that could open a can of worms i don't need.
I speak here at BITOG as a individual not only Hurst Injector.

Your point about the warranty is honestly really neither here or there.
Yes you could run it and do nothing. Decreased engine performance and efficiency over 10 years or 100K is not a warranty issue.
If someone is keeping the car a few years then getting rid of it for another new one then i agree completely.
But for many 100K is just the beginning and they would like to get much more life out of the car. In this case good maintenance when the car is young will go a long way in keeping maintenance cost down in the long run.


Good info Trav! I have a friend read on the net about dumping acetone in his gas for better power and to clean injectors. He wanted to add a gallon to a 20 gallon tank. Some people read only part of an article, or get their info from uninformed people. Changing the topic of discussion was the best thing to do for me. As a business man you should CYA.

 

[johnachak]

Nice thanks! One more question. Which cleaner do you like to use? Thanks for the idea.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
Nice thanks! One more question. Which cleaner do you like to use? Thanks for the idea.



You can use carb cleaner or intake cleaner. I've used everything from STP intake cleaner to Gumout Carb cleaners all the same. There is no special coating inside the throttle body that can be harmed by carb cleaner like some vehicles..which was why intake cleaner was created.

One time I did siphon Seafoam thru, but I really think the whole can of spray cleaner does as good a job and is cheaper and faster.

Oh, and when you do this you will SEE carbon dripping out the tailpipes so a good drive right afterwards cleans any residual junk out.

 

[dwendt44]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: dwendt44
MMO is designed to be burned in the combustion chamber.
ATF isn't, and will likely CAUSE more carbon that it'll cure anything.


Considering TONS of old timers run ATF in the fuel to....guess what? Yup, that is right, clean deposits with no apparent damage during that time.

I have to say that your statement is a good attempt at random justification but still fails in the science world. There is as much "real world testing" supporting the ATF as the cleaner as there is MMO.



TON?? Old timers do a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense these days. Flush with kerosene; 3000 mile oil changes; filter every other change; only change oil hot; Re-tread tires? etc..
Had one old timer say he uses straight 20 weight oil in the winger (in Wisconsin yet). Didn't believe in multi-weight oil.
ATF is NOT designed to be burned. There's no solvent as part of the mixture. It MAY lube the intake valves, but clean? I doubt it does much cleaning.

 

[FZ1]

Thanks for the info re the Redline cleaner not being too harsh. Most people don't know the difference between additives,including me. My 02 V6 Accord,at 115,000,runs fine but , if I try an fi cleaner,I'll try the Redline you say is not too harsh. Thanks for the info.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: dwendt44
MMO is designed to be burned in the combustion chamber.
ATF isn't, and will likely CAUSE more carbon that it'll cure anything.


Considering TONS of old timers run ATF in the fuel to....guess what? Yup, that is right, clean deposits with no apparent damage during that time.

I have to say that your statement is a good attempt at random justification but still fails in the science world. There is as much "real world testing" supporting the ATF as the cleaner as there is MMO.



TON?? Old timers do a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense these days. Flush with kerosene; 3000 mile oil changes; filter every other change; only change oil hot; Re-tread tires? etc..
Had one old timer say he uses straight 20 weight oil in the winger (in Wisconsin yet). Didn't believe in multi-weight oil.
ATF is NOT designed to be burned. There's no solvent as part of the mixture. It MAY lube the intake valves, but clean? I doubt it does much cleaning.
People are still doing flushes when they have sludged up engines ,some with kerosene based solvents.
In the old days 20w in the engine is what they did for multi visc

Doesn't Honda recommend ever other oil change to change the oil filter?
There are a bunch of 3,000 mile oil change intervals posted on this site ,some with Botique syn oil.
ATF is oil so it will do what ever any oil would do in the combustion chamber. Ideal? probably not
Lots of big trucks use recap tires
The more things seem to change the more they stay the same
Ever notice every time gas prices go up the same stuff is posted on how to get better mpgs or the snake oil treatments are marketed?

 

[JoeWGauss]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
[
There is no special coating inside the throttle body that can be harmed by carb cleaner like some vehicles..which was why intake cleaner was created.

.


INCORRECT!

There are some manufacturers that DO in fact use a coating on the inside the TB to reduce the amout of buildup that will stick to it.


They specifically state that using regular carb cleaner will destroy that coating.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: JoeWGauss
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
[
There is no special coating inside the throttle body that can be harmed by carb cleaner like some vehicles..which was why intake cleaner was created.

.


INCORRECT!

There are some manufacturers that DO in fact use a coating on the inside the TB to reduce the amout of buildup that will stick to it.


They specifically state that using regular carb cleaner will destroy that coating.



Please RE-READ my comment....I said SOME vehicles do...the CTS Does not! Also - we are spraying AFTER the throttle body...thru a vac connection.

 

[WANG]

I'm surprised that this discussion has not touched on installing a catch can or similar in the PCV system. If we were to reduce the amount of oil in the crankcase vapors that are pouring over the intake valves, then surely we could reduce the amount of oil based deposits on said valves, no?