I hate to say it BUT if you simply vented those vapors to the air, like was done decades ago you would have no problem right?
Solutions for DI Engines?
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The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Nice thanks
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Yes.
I've heard only good things about this kit from 3M.
And unlike Seafoam which is only basic common solvents the 3M formula has detergent additives in it as well. It is supposed to be very effective at cleaning the intake, tb, and runners, even will clean the valves very effectively!
Probably as good as a professional job done at a good shop.
The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Yes.
I've heard only good things about this kit from 3M.
And unlike Seafoam which is only basic common solvents the 3M formula has detergent additives in it as well. It is supposed to be very effective at cleaning the intake, tb, and runners, even will clean the valves very effectively!
Probably as good as a professional job done at a good shop.
Top Tier + the occasional PEA additive shot doesn't prevent intake deposits.... I know from over 100,000 miles with a turbo direct injection gas engine....using almost exclusively Shell V-Power and a bottle of techron every 5,000 miles
Water-Methanol injection doesn't work either, because its magic occurs inside the combustion chamber, not the intake manifold...
Catch-can? Well, it doesn't work for the VAG 2.0T, and also with engines with no external EGR
Water-Methanol injection doesn't work either, because its magic occurs inside the combustion chamber, not the intake manifold...
Catch-can? Well, it doesn't work for the VAG 2.0T, and also with engines with no external EGR
Originally Posted By: JoeWGauss
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Yes.
I've heard only good things about this kit from 3M.
And unlike Seafoam which is only basic common solvents the 3M formula has detergent additives in it as well. It is supposed to be very effective at cleaning the intake, tb, and runners, even will clean the valves very effectively!
Probably as good as a professional job done at a good shop.
99% true. I agree it is a great product..however where it falls down is the injector cleaning because it only depends on a tank additive. Here is where I use BWD injector/intake cleaner or 3M (whoever is on sale or cheaper) can connected to the fuel rail shrader valve. It is really the best way to clean injectors since pure cleaning additives go thru the injectors.
But, yes - the intake cleaning kit is a nice preventative maintenance routine.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Yes.
I've heard only good things about this kit from 3M.
And unlike Seafoam which is only basic common solvents the 3M formula has detergent additives in it as well. It is supposed to be very effective at cleaning the intake, tb, and runners, even will clean the valves very effectively!
Probably as good as a professional job done at a good shop.
99% true. I agree it is a great product..however where it falls down is the injector cleaning because it only depends on a tank additive. Here is where I use BWD injector/intake cleaner or 3M (whoever is on sale or cheaper) can connected to the fuel rail shrader valve. It is really the best way to clean injectors since pure cleaning additives go thru the injectors.
But, yes - the intake cleaning kit is a nice preventative maintenance routine.
As was mentioned in this blog much much earlier. Toyota still keeps a small multi-port injector in their design to keep the intake valves clean. I believe the blogger here, as well as MT or C&D magazine mentioned the same. Seems Toyota knew of the problem or felt the fouling of the back of the intakes valve was substantial enough. I will try to find the article and post the issue month.
Originally Posted By: MJC302
As was mentioned in this blog much much earlier. Toyota still keeps a small multi-port injector in their design to keep the intake valves clean. I believe the blogger here, as well as MT or C&D magazine mentioned the same. Seems Toyota knew of the problem or felt the fouling of the back of the intakes valve was substantial enough. I will try to find the article and post the issue month.
The Toyota D4 is direct injection only. No secondary injector. Toyota makes makes and markets vehicle with direct injection only.
the Toyota D4-S combines both multi-port and direct injection. Most Lexus engines feature this (except RX350 & ES350)
As was mentioned in this blog much much earlier. Toyota still keeps a small multi-port injector in their design to keep the intake valves clean. I believe the blogger here, as well as MT or C&D magazine mentioned the same. Seems Toyota knew of the problem or felt the fouling of the back of the intakes valve was substantial enough. I will try to find the article and post the issue month.
The Toyota D4 is direct injection only. No secondary injector. Toyota makes makes and markets vehicle with direct injection only.
the Toyota D4-S combines both multi-port and direct injection. Most Lexus engines feature this (except RX350 & ES350)
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Does anyone notice any "before and after" results using a cleaner in a can?
To be honest, mostly no as far as performance is concerned. However, I do always notice an improvement in idle quality since the deposits do effect the throttle blade and IAC. Cleaning them cures those slight rough idles in many cases.
If you are REALLY carboned up, I think you would see and feel some sort of improvement due to less spark retard (from carbon build up)and and you'd have better fuel optimization since the carbon wouldn't be soaking up fuel.
Does anyone notice any "before and after" results using a cleaner in a can?
To be honest, mostly no as far as performance is concerned. However, I do always notice an improvement in idle quality since the deposits do effect the throttle blade and IAC. Cleaning them cures those slight rough idles in many cases.
If you are REALLY carboned up, I think you would see and feel some sort of improvement due to less spark retard (from carbon build up)and and you'd have better fuel optimization since the carbon wouldn't be soaking up fuel.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: JoeWGauss
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Yes.
I've heard only good things about this kit from 3M.
And unlike Seafoam which is only basic common solvents the 3M formula has detergent additives in it as well. It is supposed to be very effective at cleaning the intake, tb, and runners, even will clean the valves very effectively!
Probably as good as a professional job done at a good shop.
99% true. I agree it is a great product..however where it falls down is the injector cleaning because it only depends on a tank additive. Here is where I use BWD injector/intake cleaner or 3M (whoever is on sale or cheaper) can connected to the fuel rail shrader valve. It is really the best way to clean injectors since pure cleaning additives go thru the injectors.
But, yes - the intake cleaning kit is a nice preventative maintenance routine.
I suppose one could say 'falls down' because of the tank additive injector cleaner, 'as compared to professional rail cleaning'. However, lot's of folks have never had a rail injector cleaning (me included), just used tank injector/fuel system cleaners(Regane/Techron), on a regular or semi regular basis, and never had a performance issue with port injection. I will say that two parts (throttle body and FI cleaner) of this kit are easily obtained from other sources outside of the 3M kit.
What makes the 3M kit unique though, is the Intake Cleaning System. I know of no other available DIY Intake Cleaner including DI intake valves, that automatically and evenly dispenses cleaner into the intake over a period of time for cleaning.
The thing I don't understand is why the 3M DIY FSTU Kit seems to be so scarce and difficult to obtain.
Originally Posted By: JoeWGauss
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Yes.
I've heard only good things about this kit from 3M.
And unlike Seafoam which is only basic common solvents the 3M formula has detergent additives in it as well. It is supposed to be very effective at cleaning the intake, tb, and runners, even will clean the valves very effectively!
Probably as good as a professional job done at a good shop.
99% true. I agree it is a great product..however where it falls down is the injector cleaning because it only depends on a tank additive. Here is where I use BWD injector/intake cleaner or 3M (whoever is on sale or cheaper) can connected to the fuel rail shrader valve. It is really the best way to clean injectors since pure cleaning additives go thru the injectors.
But, yes - the intake cleaning kit is a nice preventative maintenance routine.
I suppose one could say 'falls down' because of the tank additive injector cleaner, 'as compared to professional rail cleaning'. However, lot's of folks have never had a rail injector cleaning (me included), just used tank injector/fuel system cleaners(Regane/Techron), on a regular or semi regular basis, and never had a performance issue with port injection. I will say that two parts (throttle body and FI cleaner) of this kit are easily obtained from other sources outside of the 3M kit.
What makes the 3M kit unique though, is the Intake Cleaning System. I know of no other available DIY Intake Cleaner including DI intake valves, that automatically and evenly dispenses cleaner into the intake over a period of time for cleaning.
The thing I don't understand is why the 3M DIY FSTU Kit seems to be so scarce and difficult to obtain.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: JoeWGauss
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Yes.
I've heard only good things about this kit from 3M.
And unlike Seafoam which is only basic common solvents the 3M formula has detergent additives in it as well. It is supposed to be very effective at cleaning the intake, tb, and runners, even will clean the valves very effectively!
Probably as good as a professional job done at a good shop.
99% true. I agree it is a great product..however where it falls down is the injector cleaning because it only depends on a tank additive. Here is where I use BWD injector/intake cleaner or 3M (whoever is on sale or cheaper) can connected to the fuel rail shrader valve. It is really the best way to clean injectors since pure cleaning additives go thru the injectors.
But, yes - the intake cleaning kit is a nice preventative maintenance routine.
I suppose one could say 'falls down' because of the tank additive injector cleaner, 'as compared to professional rail cleaning'. However, lot's of folks have never had a rail injector cleaning (me included), just used tank injector/fuel system cleaners(Regane/Techron), on a regular or semi regular basis, and never had a performance issue with port injection. I will say that two parts (throttle body and FI cleaner) of this kit are easily obtained from other sources outside of the 3M kit.
What makes the 3M kit unique though, is the Intake Cleaning System. I know of no other available DIY Intake Cleaner including DI intake valves, that automatically and evenly dispenses cleaner into the intake over a period of time for cleaning.
The thing I don't understand is why the 3M DIY FSTU Kit seems to be so scarce and difficult to obtain.
Valid points. If you treat your fuel on a regular basis you shouldnt have any injector issues. I was just saying in comparision you can't clean an injector as good in the tank as you can at the fuel rail.
I spray intake cleaner just like the 3M setup does, but it only costs me a $4 can of cleaner. I spray the whole can while the motor runs for the same style of cleaning.
I agree that it should be more available
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: JoeWGauss
Originally Posted By: sayjac
The best DIY kit I've seen for DI engine valve cleaning is 3M DIY Fuel System Tune Up Kit. I especially like the design of Intake System Cleaner. It's sold at Amazon, but is rather difficult to find.
Yes.
I've heard only good things about this kit from 3M.
And unlike Seafoam which is only basic common solvents the 3M formula has detergent additives in it as well. It is supposed to be very effective at cleaning the intake, tb, and runners, even will clean the valves very effectively!
Probably as good as a professional job done at a good shop.
99% true. I agree it is a great product..however where it falls down is the injector cleaning because it only depends on a tank additive. Here is where I use BWD injector/intake cleaner or 3M (whoever is on sale or cheaper) can connected to the fuel rail shrader valve. It is really the best way to clean injectors since pure cleaning additives go thru the injectors.
But, yes - the intake cleaning kit is a nice preventative maintenance routine.
I suppose one could say 'falls down' because of the tank additive injector cleaner, 'as compared to professional rail cleaning'. However, lot's of folks have never had a rail injector cleaning (me included), just used tank injector/fuel system cleaners(Regane/Techron), on a regular or semi regular basis, and never had a performance issue with port injection. I will say that two parts (throttle body and FI cleaner) of this kit are easily obtained from other sources outside of the 3M kit.
What makes the 3M kit unique though, is the Intake Cleaning System. I know of no other available DIY Intake Cleaner including DI intake valves, that automatically and evenly dispenses cleaner into the intake over a period of time for cleaning.
The thing I don't understand is why the 3M DIY FSTU Kit seems to be so scarce and difficult to obtain.
Valid points. If you treat your fuel on a regular basis you shouldnt have any injector issues. I was just saying in comparision you can't clean an injector as good in the tank as you can at the fuel rail.
I spray intake cleaner just like the 3M setup does, but it only costs me a $4 can of cleaner. I spray the whole can while the motor runs for the same style of cleaning.
I agree that it should be more available
Originally Posted By: WANG
I'm surprised that this discussion has not touched on installing a catch can or similar in the PCV system. If we were to reduce the amount of oil in the crankcase vapors that are pouring over the intake valves, then surely we could reduce the amount of oil based deposits on said valves, no?
+1
I'm surprised that this discussion has not touched on installing a catch can or similar in the PCV system. If we were to reduce the amount of oil in the crankcase vapors that are pouring over the intake valves, then surely we could reduce the amount of oil based deposits on said valves, no?
+1
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Does anyone notice any "before and after" results using a cleaner in a can?
To be honest, mostly no as far as performance is concerned. However, I do always notice an improvement in idle quality since the deposits do effect the throttle blade and IAC. Cleaning them cures those slight rough idles in many cases.
If you are REALLY carboned up, I think you would see and feel some sort of improvement due to less spark retard (from carbon build up)and and you'd have better fuel optimization since the carbon wouldn't be soaking up fuel.
Thanks for your experience.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Does anyone notice any "before and after" results using a cleaner in a can?
To be honest, mostly no as far as performance is concerned. However, I do always notice an improvement in idle quality since the deposits do effect the throttle blade and IAC. Cleaning them cures those slight rough idles in many cases.
If you are REALLY carboned up, I think you would see and feel some sort of improvement due to less spark retard (from carbon build up)and and you'd have better fuel optimization since the carbon wouldn't be soaking up fuel.
Thanks for your experience.
Originally Posted By: JoeWGauss
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
[
There is no special coating inside the throttle body that can be harmed by carb cleaner like some vehicles..which was why intake cleaner was created.
.
INCORRECT!
There are some manufacturers that DO in fact use a coating on the inside the TB to reduce the amout of buildup that will stick to it.
They specifically state that using regular carb cleaner will destroy that coating.
Pray tell, Is Cadillac one of those?
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
[
There is no special coating inside the throttle body that can be harmed by carb cleaner like some vehicles..which was why intake cleaner was created.
.
INCORRECT!
There are some manufacturers that DO in fact use a coating on the inside the TB to reduce the amout of buildup that will stick to it.
They specifically state that using regular carb cleaner will destroy that coating.
Pray tell, Is Cadillac one of those?
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Does anyone notice any "before and after" results using a cleaner in a can?
Speaking from seafoam experience (sea foam in a can)... yes. Misfires disappear, runs a lot smoother (so that I can run the higher performance program)....
the 3M kit, I cannot say, as the first time I used it... I trimmed too much of the straw off and it did not spray properly.
Does anyone notice any "before and after" results using a cleaner in a can?
Speaking from seafoam experience (sea foam in a can)... yes. Misfires disappear, runs a lot smoother (so that I can run the higher performance program)....
the 3M kit, I cannot say, as the first time I used it... I trimmed too much of the straw off and it did not spray properly.
DI is here to stay because it improve fuel economy and that will be one of the low hanging fruit in the future when the can figure out how to reduce the lean burn related NOX (i.e. with urea injection).
The easiest (but expensive) way to deal with it is with dual injector per cylinder. The bonus is that in low throttle port injection is actually more efficient than direct injection. IS350 use port injection in low throttle and then gradually switch to direct injection at high throttle.
Catch can would not be a mass production solution because all the accumulated water has to go somewhere, along with the fuel and oil vapor. Over one OCI there would be a lot of water and venting them to the atmosphere would for sure get the EPA/CARB/foreign government regulatory body very unhappy.
A cheap solution may be an injector in the intake manifold like we have the carburetor days, with fuel or additives only.
The easiest (but expensive) way to deal with it is with dual injector per cylinder. The bonus is that in low throttle port injection is actually more efficient than direct injection. IS350 use port injection in low throttle and then gradually switch to direct injection at high throttle.
Catch can would not be a mass production solution because all the accumulated water has to go somewhere, along with the fuel and oil vapor. Over one OCI there would be a lot of water and venting them to the atmosphere would for sure get the EPA/CARB/foreign government regulatory body very unhappy.
A cheap solution may be an injector in the intake manifold like we have the carburetor days, with fuel or additives only.
Water/Methanol Injection is another option. EGR block plates (throws CELL but some ways for some to eliminate that). Catch Can for PCV system will also help. Ester based oils also known to help. Seafoam in brake booster works... but in 50 miles it's accumulating again & is right back where it was usually by 150. So it's more of a measure to prevent long term large buildup. At 34k miles I've lost 3 - 4 mpg & very substantial power on my car from DI.
PS Another reason makers like DI is b/c it produces less emissions in testing. Higher compression in turbo's Better mpg in testing. Mind you the manufacturers care about their as tested #'s more than what happens to you down the line. As long as they can meet their requirements by the government on emissions & cafe mpg. It also puts better #'s for the sale sticker which sells cars.
PS Another reason makers like DI is b/c it produces less emissions in testing. Higher compression in turbo's Better mpg in testing. Mind you the manufacturers care about their as tested #'s more than what happens to you down the line. As long as they can meet their requirements by the government on emissions & cafe mpg. It also puts better #'s for the sale sticker which sells cars.
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