Solutions for DI Engines?

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Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I like your words IF, MAY and also hurt of the issues in a DI engine. Also the statement "Fuel dilution is an issue even if you figure out a way to keep the valves clean" is a nice (and accurate) comment.


Bill



Bill I try and be careful picking words, since I don't want to start a flame war, or get into some kind of heated debate over these engines. I think we share similar views. Once again I feel it is going be the wave of the future and shortly we will have no other option if buying a new car. I hope if/when that time comes these discussions will be history and the engines solid and reliable with proof to back them up.
 
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If I had (when I purchase) a vehicle with DI, I would (will) seriously consider installing an Ampco Lubricator and using MMO in it. To me, it looks like the easiest and most economical way of preventing the intake valve deposit problem.



I find the oiler system intriguing, so here goes:

Questions, if it throws oil before the intake, then the engine will have no way of actually measuring the fuel mixture entering the cylinders. Is it possible the system can add just the right amount of oil without fouling plugs or the Cat system? Will that small amount of oil actually be enough to clean the valves or will it bake onto them?
 
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Originally Posted By: johnachak

If I had (when I purchase) a vehicle with DI, I would (will) seriously consider installing an Ampco Lubricator and using MMO in it. To me, it looks like the easiest and most economical way of preventing the intake valve deposit problem.
I find the oiler system intriguing, so here goes:

Questions, if it throws oil before the intake, then the engine will have no way of actually measuring the fuel mixture entering the cylinders. Is it possible the system can add just the right amount of oil without fouling plugs or the Cat system? Will that small amount of oil actually be enough to clean the valves or will it bake onto them?


I can speak from experience using Inverse Oilers in two vehicles for over 20 years, they won't foul plugs, they won't kill cat converters, and they won't clean fuel injectors. IMO they will work with DI because MMO is fed via a vacuum line all the time. As vacuum drops, [increased load on the engine], the amount of oil fed increases. With the MMO oiler you can calibrate it to feed ~ 1 qt of MMO/1000 miles, I'm sure others are similar.

In order for MMO to work in a DI engine it must be fed via a vacuum line, all the time. Adding it to the gas or oil will do nothing to stop the intake valve deposits. IMO the earlier in the life of a DI engine it is installed the better. Once the deposits start to build up cleaning becomes more difficult. The Inverse Oiler installed early on should stop the build up. Please note it will do nothing for fuel dilution!

If I owned a DI engine an Inverse Oiler would be one of the first things I install.
 
I have a 2011 Sonata 2.4L engine, which is DI. In my previous car, a 2005 Neon SRT-4, I used water/methanol injection to squeeze more performance out of the turbo. In this car, I'm thinking a 100% water injection on this might be a viable option for the long term "steam cleaning" effect.

Thoughts?
 
Originally Posted By: johnachak

I find the oiler system intriguing, so here goes:

Questions, if it throws oil before the intake, then the engine will have no way of actually measuring the fuel mixture entering the cylinders. Is it possible the system can add just the right amount of oil without fouling plugs or the Cat system? Will that small amount of oil actually be enough to clean the valves or will it bake onto them?


The first question should be when will there be proof, or even solid evidence, MMO can actually clean deposits on valves or even prevent their formation?

I agree MMO is completely safe to use, but I can't find anything with hard evidence showing it can do much more than lighten a wallet. I have done some personal testing with no positive results in fuel or oil. I need to find a beater with known issues to do anything more conclusive.
 
Originally Posted By: Philth
I have a 2011 Sonata 2.4L engine, which is DI. In my previous car, a 2005 Neon SRT-4, I used water/methanol injection to squeeze more performance out of the turbo. In this car, I'm thinking a 100% water injection on this might be a viable option for the long term "steam cleaning" effect.

Thoughts?


My only concern would be what you it do to the injectors and emission equipment downstream?
21.gif


If I had DI I'd prob keep real accurate records on fuel economy and once it dropped off get something/someone to check the intake ports. Then deal with it. Lucky your engine its easy to get to them. Not a real big job.

Bill
 
It makes sense but won't it void the warranty if installed early in the life?
Can it be put on and removed between trips to the dealer for service?
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: johnachak

I find the oiler system intriguing, so here goes:

Questions, if it throws oil before the intake, then the engine will have no way of actually measuring the fuel mixture entering the cylinders. Is it possible the system can add just the right amount of oil without fouling plugs or the Cat system? Will that small amount of oil actually be enough to clean the valves or will it bake onto them?


The first question should be when will there be proof, or even solid evidence, MMO can actually clean deposits on valves or even prevent their formation?

I agree MMO is completely safe to use, but I can't find anything with hard evidence showing it can do much more than lighten a wallet. I have done some personal testing with no positive results in fuel or oil. I need to find a beater with known issues to do anything more conclusive.


Ever pull a cylinder head on an engine fed MMO via an Inverse oiler? You'll be a believer, and I'm pretty sure feeding it to a DI engine will help considerably. Search for pictures Gary Allan had posted about his MMO ATF mix added to the gas, and how clean that head was.

The water injection idea someone posted might work as well, certainly worth looking into.
 
Originally Posted By: johnachak
It makes sense but won't it void the warranty if installed early in the life?
Can it be put on and removed between trips to the dealer for service?


Inverse oiler installation is very simple. You cut a vacuum line and install a "Tee" fitting, connect 1/4" fuel line to the "Tee" and route it to the oiler, which is usually mounted to the firewall or a fender. Just remove it before taking it in for warranty work.
 
The problem is that as with most new cars adding MMO or other such additives will most likely void the warranty. So it really is a non issue unless you want to go without a new car warranty.

The best bet is probably the water injection since it won't leave any trace of itself during the cleaning process after putting a few miles on the car. MMO OTOH would likely be easily detected by an oil analysis by the manufacturer or dealer.

I highly recommend not putting any non approved additive in ANY new car with a warranty, its not worth the trouble which might end up being very expensive .
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Ever pull a cylinder head on an engine fed MMO via an Inverse oiler? You'll be a believer, and I'm pretty sure feeding it to a DI engine will help considerably. Search for pictures Gary Allan had posted about his MMO ATF mix added to the gas, and how clean that head was.

The water injection idea someone posted might work as well, certainly worth looking into.


Sigh....Simple logic dictates gary allen's test didn't prove squat about MMO. It could have been the ATF.

Anyone who was crazy enough to put an inverse oiler on an engine probably maintained the engine as good as possible. Again, that holds no scientific meaning what so ever.

MMO has never provided real evidence of anything other than being harmless.
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Ever pull a cylinder head on an engine fed MMO via an Inverse oiler? You'll be a believer, and I'm pretty sure feeding it to a DI engine will help considerably. Search for pictures Gary Allan had posted about his MMO ATF mix added to the gas, and how clean that head was.

The water injection idea someone posted might work as well, certainly worth looking into.


Sigh....Simple logic dictates gary allen's test didn't prove squat about MMO. It could have been the ATF.

Anyone who was crazy enough to put an inverse oiler on an engine probably maintained the engine as good as possible. Again, that holds no scientific meaning what so ever.

MMO has never provided real evidence of anything other than being harmless.


Sigh! Did you pull a head from an engine fed MMO via an Inverse Oiler? I realize you hate MMO. Having said that until you've pulled a head from an engine fed MMO via an inverse oiler you'll see for yourself just how clean it will be. Based on my own visual inspection and seeing Gary's pictures I'd be willing to bet MMO had more to do with cleaning it than ATF did.

Thanks for the compliment BTW about me being crazy enough to install an Inverse Oiler, they work. The OP was asking for solutions for DI engines, the Inverse Oiler might just be the ticket for him. Is he crazy for asking, and wanting to avoid a problem? I don't think so. Don't you add A-Rx as a maint dose? Some would say that's crazy too, after all you do properly maintain your engine don't you?


Originally Posted By: badtlc
MMO has never provided real evidence of anything other than being harmless.


LOL at least I don't have to heat the bottle and hope it pours in the winter time.
 
Quote:
I used water/methanol injection to squeeze more performance out of the turbo. In this car, I'm thinking a 100% water injection on this might be a viable option for the long term "steam cleaning" effect.



You know something you and Frank (demarpaint) may be onto so something with all this.
Modern diesels had some emission issues that needed to be corrected with the addition of an extra container containing another liquid.

I'm not thinking a direct water/methanol system but a bubbler system of some sort. Years ago Ron Novak messed around with a crude and privative system that yield good results.
One of the big benefits to these things was it eliminated deposits in the combustion chambers and the intake valves.

If these were refined with new technology with a maybe a different chemical additive made to a norm that needed to be added at a specific interval it may just be the ticket.

http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/water_injection/novak/novak/060-114-01.html

http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/water_injection/novak/
 
Inverse oilers using MMO have a proven track record over MANY years of use. The air cooled flat four VW community is especially fond of them because these engines are particularly prone to intake valve and combustion chamber carbon deposits. VW owners have reported excellent results for many years, their testimonials are all over the Internet. Inverse Oilers with MMO DO keep intake valves and combustion chambers clean. What you have here is a simple, reliable, inexpensive, and effective system. What more could you ask for? The only problem that I can see with it is the fact that there is precious little room under the hoods of most modern vehicles where one of these can be mounted.
 
Thanks Trav and wag123. Some people just don't want to believe these systems work. Keep in mind an inverse oiler won't keep injectors clean. For that to happen the additive must be mixed into the gas.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Thanks Trav and wag123. Some people just don't want to believe these systems work. Keep in mind an inverse oiler won't keep injectors clean. For that to happen the additive must be mixed into the gas.

Correct. I am personally not a proponent of using MMO in the crankcase or fuel tank, although there are some staunch supporters for this kind of use. Using only a top tier gasoline with an occasional bottle of Techron added to the tank should do the trick here.
 
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Originally Posted By: chubbs1
I know there have been posts on this before. The best alternatives I had seen was don't buy them until the bugs were worked out. I Just got a 2011 Sonata GLS 2.4 GDI.

What are some ways we can keep these injectors clean?

Do you use fuel system cleaner? Do you think using MMO in the tank and the Crank Case?

Or is this a hopeless situation? Lets put some BITOG ideas together!
Never,Never,Never,stick foreign objects in you eye or in your car!!(MMo). No worries, you've got a 10year/100,000 powertrain warranty.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
^^How many miles on the Caddy?^^ Do you have any UOA reports to post? Just wondering that's all.



I have a fully loaded 3.6DI CTS as well...most of you know that and that my posted UOA's were great with none of the fuel dilution spoken of. My car now has 48k trouble free miles and my dad has the same car with the mileage. I do spray a full can of intake cleaner thru the intake with engine running before each oil change as a preventative measure in case all this DI worrys were to be true.
 
Quote:
Never,Never,Never,stick foreign objects in you eye or in your car!!(MMo).


That's a very broad statement! Almost every manufacturer i know of over the last decades has recommended some sort of additive to clear some issue at one time or another. The list includes top engine cleaners, lubes, transmission additives, upper cyl lube, ps additive etc. BMW even highly recommends a fuel injection cleaner IIRC its made for them by Redline and is the same as Sl-1.
This is an excellent product that really keeps injectors clean long term. When used in directed amounts it should prevent any dirty injectors over the life of the car.

You statement paints with a pretty broad brush and IMHO is a little short sighted, IMO there is nothing wrong with keeping parts in peak working order warranty or not.

As far as 10/100 warranty what happens after 100K?
Buy new injectors at 300-400 per x4 plus labor when it could have been prevented in the first place. Not to mention the ever declining performance.
 
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