Why thank you. I will consider a UOA around then if the oil actually goes over 3000 miles... maybe even if it doesn't. I must say that the oil does get darker quicker than in the Ford or Chevy and I use syn in them too.
Solutions for DI Engines?
- Thread starter chubbs1
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Sorry if I offended you johnchak. I didn't see that you had a CTS in your sig. The first car that came into my head was the CTS because it was one of the first non turbo DI cars to hit the market a few years ago.
I think VW has the bigger problem with the DI engines compared to other makes. They can't run the engine in Lean-Burn mode in North America.
I think VW has the bigger problem with the DI engines compared to other makes. They can't run the engine in Lean-Burn mode in North America.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It will get rid of deposits where it TOUCHES them.
"Dry" intake manifolds are notorious for bad distribution of liquids. Expect very uneven coverage from cylinder to cylinder, and thus spotty results.
OK, so Amsoil power foam then. Still pretty cheap.
Same thing. Even a bubbly liquid will be distributed poorly in most cars these days. Probably an ok fix for an inline motor with a very straight/simple intake.
But they simply are not designed the way they used to be when they had liquid fuel present. That's why it won't work optimally.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It will get rid of deposits where it TOUCHES them.
"Dry" intake manifolds are notorious for bad distribution of liquids. Expect very uneven coverage from cylinder to cylinder, and thus spotty results.
OK, so Amsoil power foam then. Still pretty cheap.
Same thing. Even a bubbly liquid will be distributed poorly in most cars these days. Probably an ok fix for an inline motor with a very straight/simple intake.
But they simply are not designed the way they used to be when they had liquid fuel present. That's why it won't work optimally.
Demarpaint is correct. Fuel dilution is an issue even if you figure out a way to keep the valves clean.
One of our mods needs to go back to school. By playing with valve timing Ford may be holding this issue at bay. Ever hear of "reversion"? Here's a link:
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_1011_race_engine_reversion/index.html
Extrapolate this idea a bit and you can see how this can both be used to help and also hurt the issues in a DI engine.
But as stated MANY times here by Demarpaint and myself and many others, we'll watch while all you happy 'developers' run the beta versions!
One of our mods needs to go back to school. By playing with valve timing Ford may be holding this issue at bay. Ever hear of "reversion"? Here's a link:
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_1011_race_engine_reversion/index.html
Extrapolate this idea a bit and you can see how this can both be used to help and also hurt the issues in a DI engine.
But as stated MANY times here by Demarpaint and myself and many others, we'll watch while all you happy 'developers' run the beta versions!
Originally Posted By: johnachak
You aren't going to see blown engines from intake deposits. What you will see is loss of power and MPG. Will the average Joe that buys a 3.6L Cadillac CTS notice this? Probably not. But a enthusiast that buys a VW GTI like myself will.
This Caddy is by far the best STOCK car I have ever driven. I spec'ed it myself. I have driven many cars in my time including a VW GTI.. fun little car yes, in my opinion it doesn't even come close to this car and it is a luxury vehicle to boot. It not only is sick fast but the handling with the sport suspension and awd is phenomenal. [/quote]
While I respect your love for your car it is far from a performance 4 door! C'mon! You might make fun of a GTI but any serious sedan is going to blow you away, and that includes handling.
Knocking other's cars will bring you some funny juju around here. And quoting pricing is tacky, the prices are public and everyone knows what they cost.
You aren't going to see blown engines from intake deposits. What you will see is loss of power and MPG. Will the average Joe that buys a 3.6L Cadillac CTS notice this? Probably not. But a enthusiast that buys a VW GTI like myself will.
This Caddy is by far the best STOCK car I have ever driven. I spec'ed it myself. I have driven many cars in my time including a VW GTI.. fun little car yes, in my opinion it doesn't even come close to this car and it is a luxury vehicle to boot. It not only is sick fast but the handling with the sport suspension and awd is phenomenal. [/quote]
While I respect your love for your car it is far from a performance 4 door! C'mon! You might make fun of a GTI but any serious sedan is going to blow you away, and that includes handling.
Knocking other's cars will bring you some funny juju around here. And quoting pricing is tacky, the prices are public and everyone knows what they cost.
Last edited:
I got a perfect solution for DI engines... don't buy them
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I got a perfect solution for DI engines... don't buy them
That's my opinion too. However like it or not at some point I think all of us will end up owning one. I'm wrestling with it right now. I want a 2012 Jeep Rubicon, and IMO they now have the perfect combo 3.6 Pentastar engine and a WA580 AT. My original plan was 2013, it just works better for me. But I fear that 3.6 Pentastar engine will become DI, and then the waiting game for me begins. I want to see what happens with it before I become a tester for Chrysler. If I knew for a fact Chrysler was going to keep the Pentastar engine in its current configuration thru 2013 I'd wait the year..............
I got a perfect solution for DI engines... don't buy them
That's my opinion too. However like it or not at some point I think all of us will end up owning one. I'm wrestling with it right now. I want a 2012 Jeep Rubicon, and IMO they now have the perfect combo 3.6 Pentastar engine and a WA580 AT. My original plan was 2013, it just works better for me. But I fear that 3.6 Pentastar engine will become DI, and then the waiting game for me begins. I want to see what happens with it before I become a tester for Chrysler. If I knew for a fact Chrysler was going to keep the Pentastar engine in its current configuration thru 2013 I'd wait the year..............
Originally Posted By: Finklejag
Sorry if I offended you johnchak. I didn't see that you had a CTS in your sig. The first car that came into my head was the CTS because it was one of the first non turbo DI cars to hit the market a few years ago.
I think VW has the bigger problem with the DI engines compared to other makes. They can't run the engine in Lean-Burn mode in North America.
No prob. sorry I overreacted. I truly love cars and always considered myself an enthusiast. I took it wrong. Look if I wasn't passionate about cars would I be on here???
From talking to the Caddy mechanics they seemed unsure as to why the chains wear (stretch)with extended oil changes. Is the oil just sheared by 3 chains at high rpm? that was the opinion I got from them. I'm not saying its right but to me it makes sense. If you add in a little fuel dilution you have a recipe for disaster with a 11-12000 mi OCI.
They reprogrammed the car and now it appears to be on track for around 7500-8000 miles but I'm never going to come near that. After a long road trip I went 4000 once on M1. that was the most.
Sorry if I offended you johnchak. I didn't see that you had a CTS in your sig. The first car that came into my head was the CTS because it was one of the first non turbo DI cars to hit the market a few years ago.
I think VW has the bigger problem with the DI engines compared to other makes. They can't run the engine in Lean-Burn mode in North America.
No prob. sorry I overreacted. I truly love cars and always considered myself an enthusiast. I took it wrong. Look if I wasn't passionate about cars would I be on here???
From talking to the Caddy mechanics they seemed unsure as to why the chains wear (stretch)with extended oil changes. Is the oil just sheared by 3 chains at high rpm? that was the opinion I got from them. I'm not saying its right but to me it makes sense. If you add in a little fuel dilution you have a recipe for disaster with a 11-12000 mi OCI.
They reprogrammed the car and now it appears to be on track for around 7500-8000 miles but I'm never going to come near that. After a long road trip I went 4000 once on M1. that was the most.
While I respect your love for your car it is far from a performance 4 door! C'mon! You might make fun of a GTI but any serious sedan is going to blow you away, and that includes handling.
Knocking other's cars will bring you some funny juju around here. And quoting pricing is tacky, the prices are public and everyone knows what they cost. [/quote]
I apologized for overreacting.
Knocking other's cars will bring you some funny juju around here. And quoting pricing is tacky, the prices are public and everyone knows what they cost. [/quote]
I apologized for overreacting.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Demarpaint is correct. Fuel dilution is an issue even if you figure out a way to keep the valves clean.
One of our mods needs to go back to school. By playing with valve timing Ford may be holding this issue at bay. Ever hear of "reversion"? Here's a link:
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_1011_race_engine_reversion/index.html
Extrapolate this idea a bit and you can see how this can both be used to help and also hurt the issues in a DI engine.
But as stated MANY times here by Demarpaint and myself and many others, we'll watch while all you happy 'developers' run the beta versions!
One of our members needs to be respectful of others.
I like your words IF, MAY and also hurt of the issues in a DI engine. Also the statement "Fuel dilution is an issue even if you figure out a way to keep the valves clean" is a nice (and accurate) comment.
How about the fact that DI is causing problems that are not needed in everyday operation. Problems that normal motors get along just fine in daily operation WITHOUT any worry of timing this, deposits that or any other issues.
If a normal motor can provide the same end result (except a few ticks on a form so they can have more "points") without the DRAMA then I'm going to go with a normal motor.
In fact I did. Just bought a new vehicle and some of the competitors had DI motors (I did not look at them due to having a DI motor) and the vehicle I decided on and is in my garage had DI as an option. I passed. And am VERY happy I did.
Same with my Dad who just bought a new vehicle in May. And one other friend who bought one last month. Choices were made and all of us know one thing, a simpler motor won out in the market place. Uninformed buyers or ones that want to take the risk can buy the DI motors. As long as I can get something without or someone asks for my opinion on buying one a non DI motor will be the choice until I see the FACTUAL results of a DI motors going many many miles WITHOUT any problems.
And normal maintenance is not $200 cleanings every xx thousand of miles. If I can have engines go HUNDREDS of thousands of miles with NO injector issues (or cleanings other than a bottle of something every 30k miles) a DI motor better do the same before I see one as an owner.
Bill
PS: Can not even read your link except the first few lines.
Demarpaint is correct. Fuel dilution is an issue even if you figure out a way to keep the valves clean.
One of our mods needs to go back to school. By playing with valve timing Ford may be holding this issue at bay. Ever hear of "reversion"? Here's a link:
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_1011_race_engine_reversion/index.html
Extrapolate this idea a bit and you can see how this can both be used to help and also hurt the issues in a DI engine.
But as stated MANY times here by Demarpaint and myself and many others, we'll watch while all you happy 'developers' run the beta versions!
One of our members needs to be respectful of others.
I like your words IF, MAY and also hurt of the issues in a DI engine. Also the statement "Fuel dilution is an issue even if you figure out a way to keep the valves clean" is a nice (and accurate) comment.
How about the fact that DI is causing problems that are not needed in everyday operation. Problems that normal motors get along just fine in daily operation WITHOUT any worry of timing this, deposits that or any other issues.
If a normal motor can provide the same end result (except a few ticks on a form so they can have more "points") without the DRAMA then I'm going to go with a normal motor.
In fact I did. Just bought a new vehicle and some of the competitors had DI motors (I did not look at them due to having a DI motor) and the vehicle I decided on and is in my garage had DI as an option. I passed. And am VERY happy I did.
Same with my Dad who just bought a new vehicle in May. And one other friend who bought one last month. Choices were made and all of us know one thing, a simpler motor won out in the market place. Uninformed buyers or ones that want to take the risk can buy the DI motors. As long as I can get something without or someone asks for my opinion on buying one a non DI motor will be the choice until I see the FACTUAL results of a DI motors going many many miles WITHOUT any problems.
And normal maintenance is not $200 cleanings every xx thousand of miles. If I can have engines go HUNDREDS of thousands of miles with NO injector issues (or cleanings other than a bottle of something every 30k miles) a DI motor better do the same before I see one as an owner.
Bill
PS: Can not even read your link except the first few lines.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I got a perfect solution for DI engines... don't buy them
That's my opinion too. However like it or not at some point I think all of us will end up owning one. I'm wrestling with it right now. I want a 2012 Jeep Rubicon, and IMO they now have the perfect combo 3.6 Pentastar engine and a WA580 AT. My original plan was 2013, it just works better for me. But I fear that 3.6 Pentastar engine will become DI, and then the waiting game for me begins. I want to see what happens with it before I become a tester for Chrysler. If I knew for a fact Chrysler was going to keep the Pentastar engine in its current configuration thru 2013 I'd wait the year..............
Well I would go for the KNOWN combo. I did. The last thing I will do is become a beta tester for ANY mfg. I'll never buy a first year anything esp from a car manufacture.
Why play when there is a simpler lower cost known combo available?
That was one of the reasons why I bought a new vehicle. Unless something happens (like a semi hitting us when the vehicle is only 9 months old (like what happened with our Subaru) I hope that we can make this one last till I'm retired. By then it will have around 160-200k and then our miles driven will drop. When I need to go on a trip and need something I'll rent for the week or two. Let someone else play with maintenance for the newer vehicles that have "issues".
Take care, Bill
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I got a perfect solution for DI engines... don't buy them
That's my opinion too. However like it or not at some point I think all of us will end up owning one. I'm wrestling with it right now. I want a 2012 Jeep Rubicon, and IMO they now have the perfect combo 3.6 Pentastar engine and a WA580 AT. My original plan was 2013, it just works better for me. But I fear that 3.6 Pentastar engine will become DI, and then the waiting game for me begins. I want to see what happens with it before I become a tester for Chrysler. If I knew for a fact Chrysler was going to keep the Pentastar engine in its current configuration thru 2013 I'd wait the year..............
Well I would go for the KNOWN combo. I did. The last thing I will do is become a beta tester for ANY mfg. I'll never buy a first year anything esp from a car manufacture.
Why play when there is a simpler lower cost known combo available?
That was one of the reasons why I bought a new vehicle. Unless something happens (like a semi hitting us when the vehicle is only 9 months old (like what happened with our Subaru) I hope that we can make this one last till I'm retired. By then it will have around 160-200k and then our miles driven will drop. When I need to go on a trip and need something I'll rent for the week or two. Let someone else play with maintenance for the newer vehicles that have "issues".
Take care, Bill
Quote:
This Caddy is by far the best STOCK car I have ever driven. I spec'ed it myself. I have driven many cars in my time including a VW GTI.. fun little car yes, in my opinion it doesn't even come close to this car and it is a luxury vehicle to boot. It not only is sick fast but the handling with the sport suspension and awd is phenomenal.
The Caddy 3.6 is a decent car no doubt but with only 304 HP and 0-60 6.7 second time it barely falls into the performance category at all given its weight, i wouldn't use the word "slow" as both have decent performance but hardly sick fast either.
Performance is almost identical to the GTI 0-60 5.8 seconds* and far less than say something like an Audi S4 0-60 4.9 seconds which cost less and is very well equipped including AWD.
I am not offended by your statement just its inaccuracy, to say the GTI doesn't come close to it unless you are talking about the luxury aspect only. It not only comes close to the CTS 3.6 AWD in performance and handling it equals it.
Now if you said CTS V i would agree 100% because it is "sick fast". To be fair the stock CTS does have better 60-0 braking.
I have to agree that you would probably notice performance robbing deposits more on a 2.0 ltr high revving turbo engine sooner than on the larger displacement non turbo V6.
*Motor trends best 0-60 most other are 6.5- 6.7
Skid pad GTI 0.84g Stock
Skid pad CTS 3.6 AWD 0.83-0.85 with FE2 performance suspension
This Caddy is by far the best STOCK car I have ever driven. I spec'ed it myself. I have driven many cars in my time including a VW GTI.. fun little car yes, in my opinion it doesn't even come close to this car and it is a luxury vehicle to boot. It not only is sick fast but the handling with the sport suspension and awd is phenomenal.
The Caddy 3.6 is a decent car no doubt but with only 304 HP and 0-60 6.7 second time it barely falls into the performance category at all given its weight, i wouldn't use the word "slow" as both have decent performance but hardly sick fast either.
Performance is almost identical to the GTI 0-60 5.8 seconds* and far less than say something like an Audi S4 0-60 4.9 seconds which cost less and is very well equipped including AWD.
I am not offended by your statement just its inaccuracy, to say the GTI doesn't come close to it unless you are talking about the luxury aspect only. It not only comes close to the CTS 3.6 AWD in performance and handling it equals it.
Now if you said CTS V i would agree 100% because it is "sick fast". To be fair the stock CTS does have better 60-0 braking.
I have to agree that you would probably notice performance robbing deposits more on a 2.0 ltr high revving turbo engine sooner than on the larger displacement non turbo V6.
*Motor trends best 0-60 most other are 6.5- 6.7
Skid pad GTI 0.84g Stock
Skid pad CTS 3.6 AWD 0.83-0.85 with FE2 performance suspension
To Bill, I understand exactly what you are saying, especially about the extra maintenance of the intakes. When I bought my car I took that into consideration. I was and am very intrigued by a naturally aspirated V6 with over 300 hp. I don't believe in turboing a small motor for power. JUST MY OPINION FOLKS!
To buy a bigger larger block with a turbo was very cost prohibitive for me. I love the V but it is exceptionally expensive.
So this was a calculated choice. I originally looked at the Big Chrystlers with the 460 hp motors but the styling of this car and the interior won my wife and I over. So, this was to be the car. I didn't like the power of the stock V6. I know you guys who actually drive 300000 miles might be put off by the extra maintenance. For me, since I retired, if this car will see 4000 miles a year that will be because of a 2000 mile road trip.
If I have to put in a couple of hundred $ every 4-5 years I can live with that. When the warranty is over, I hope to be able to do it myself. If not, Oh Well. This is my hobby car and I hope to keep it for 25 years or so. that would only be a touch over 100000 miles. I have to admit, for my daily driver I picked the Ford with a 3 liter with only 200 hp that is easy on oil and hopefully is bulletproof. Of course, it turns out the tranny is the CVT and that has expensive maintenance but that is for another thread...
To buy a bigger larger block with a turbo was very cost prohibitive for me. I love the V but it is exceptionally expensive.
So this was a calculated choice. I originally looked at the Big Chrystlers with the 460 hp motors but the styling of this car and the interior won my wife and I over. So, this was to be the car. I didn't like the power of the stock V6. I know you guys who actually drive 300000 miles might be put off by the extra maintenance. For me, since I retired, if this car will see 4000 miles a year that will be because of a 2000 mile road trip.
If I have to put in a couple of hundred $ every 4-5 years I can live with that. When the warranty is over, I hope to be able to do it myself. If not, Oh Well. This is my hobby car and I hope to keep it for 25 years or so. that would only be a touch over 100000 miles. I have to admit, for my daily driver I picked the Ford with a 3 liter with only 200 hp that is easy on oil and hopefully is bulletproof. Of course, it turns out the tranny is the CVT and that has expensive maintenance but that is for another thread...
OK, is this better? It is sick fast for a Beautiful (I personally LOVE the styling and the interior, JMO), 4000+ lb luxury car with just about every safety and luxury feature you can find. I can have a very fun spirited drive on mountain twisty roads (My son lives in the mountains) yet I also have a Cadillac underneath me.
I was reading somewhere that a manufacturer is or maybe adding another injector on the intake side to help with deposit issues.
Originally Posted By: johnachak
OK, is this better? It is sick fast for a Beautiful (I personally LOVE the styling and the interior, JMO), 4000+ lb luxury car with just about every safety and luxury feature you can find. I can have a very fun spirited drive on mountain twisty roads (My son lives in the mountains) yet I also have a Cadillac underneath me.
It is better if we were in the vehicles section of the board and discussing vehicles. But we are discussing the issues of DI and the motors it has been installed on.
But it is better since you did not insult someone or their vehicle like you did in the post that I commented on.
Back to the topic on hand.
Bill
OK, is this better? It is sick fast for a Beautiful (I personally LOVE the styling and the interior, JMO), 4000+ lb luxury car with just about every safety and luxury feature you can find. I can have a very fun spirited drive on mountain twisty roads (My son lives in the mountains) yet I also have a Cadillac underneath me.
It is better if we were in the vehicles section of the board and discussing vehicles. But we are discussing the issues of DI and the motors it has been installed on.
But it is better since you did not insult someone or their vehicle like you did in the post that I commented on.
Back to the topic on hand.
Bill
In retrospect, the bug on steroids comment was not suitable. I did not mean to be insulting, my friend had one (A gti) and that's what we called it... Sorry if I insulted your ride.
I didn't even realize it till I read it a few times trying to figure out what insult you were talking about. I'm sorry.
I would pm this but I wanted to apologize publicly.
I didn't even realize it till I read it a few times trying to figure out what insult you were talking about. I'm sorry.
I would pm this but I wanted to apologize publicly.
Originally Posted By: TaterandNoodles
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I think what we will see is a throttle body injector (or some type of injector) placed in the intake track that will at times throw some fuel in BEFORE the valves that washes the oil/deposits off the valves.
When being used with the DI system that can back off not to make the intake charge richer.
Bill
Has anyone tried fitting an AMPCO oiler? Its been around for decades, mostly used in VW and early classics. I would adjust the metering via a valve and be done with it.
http://www.ampcolubes.com/index.php?content=about
If I had (when I purchase) a vehicle with DI, I would (will) seriously consider installing an Ampco Lubricator and using MMO in it. To me, it looks like the easiest and most economical way of preventing the intake valve deposit problem.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I think what we will see is a throttle body injector (or some type of injector) placed in the intake track that will at times throw some fuel in BEFORE the valves that washes the oil/deposits off the valves.
When being used with the DI system that can back off not to make the intake charge richer.
Bill
Has anyone tried fitting an AMPCO oiler? Its been around for decades, mostly used in VW and early classics. I would adjust the metering via a valve and be done with it.
http://www.ampcolubes.com/index.php?content=about
If I had (when I purchase) a vehicle with DI, I would (will) seriously consider installing an Ampco Lubricator and using MMO in it. To me, it looks like the easiest and most economical way of preventing the intake valve deposit problem.
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
I was reading somewhere that a manufacturer is or maybe adding another injector on the intake side to help with deposit issues.
What this tells me is the automakers are certainly aware of the problems. The question is this, how long will it take in real world use to be certain the extra injector made a difference? Seems to me the waiting game starts all over again. One side of me likes change, another hates it. They had fuel injection as I knew it nailed, why mess with it?
I was reading somewhere that a manufacturer is or maybe adding another injector on the intake side to help with deposit issues.
What this tells me is the automakers are certainly aware of the problems. The question is this, how long will it take in real world use to be certain the extra injector made a difference? Seems to me the waiting game starts all over again. One side of me likes change, another hates it. They had fuel injection as I knew it nailed, why mess with it?
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