I mean, there's a lot of reasons it could change. Could be cost, supplier, supplies, better quality fuel so we need less to accomplish the same goal as before, etc.
So what's the "go-to" PEA based fuel additive? Indirect and direct injection engines...
- Thread starter NattyBoh
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All good points but when I see what PEA sells for on the Chinese market, it kind of feels like shrinkflation.
Some vendors buy imported PEA in barrels and then repackage it for individual sales. On their oil forums, they say it's legitimate.
It has to be diluted (I think fuel is fine) at a 1:1 ratio as PEA has a high viscosity.
33.8oz of pure PEA from an American producer called Huntsman costs $14.24US, with free shipping. That's cheaper than what I paid today for 32oz of techron..
For my mileage (120k miles), engine (port injected) and fuel tank (13 gallons) - seller recommended 5oz of PEA for the first tank, 5oz for the second tank and then 1.35oz in every tank thereafter as maintenance
Techron is commonly sold in 10oz or 12oz bottles so that means 2oz-3.6oz of PEA.
It sounds like their old formula had similar PEA dosage to what the Chinese recommend but not the new formula.
Here are some photos of one review where the guy showed his progress after half a bottle was used. No one is using 8 bottles of techron in a row so unless techron PEA is significantly better or fuel got better, I don't think the results in every category would be similar.
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Amines can be very hard on polymers. Be careful.
Good advice as I saw a video saying seals can age prematurely if using "pure PEA".
Also - don't use it as lube
Translated review:
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PEA is not a single molecule where everybody is making the same thing and the application is relevant to gas additives.
So, a great deal of caution needs to be employed with what you're suggesting.
You're right. Huntsman also makes PEA for epoxy.
At least for this listing, it's the type for fuel additives (FL-1000).
We don't have access to this so what I meant to suggest was if we wanted to use the old dosage that Techron had, which is the same as what the Chinese recommend today - is the danger really that high?
The more I look into it, the more I realize their gasoline might not have additives like ours so the higher dosage might not be needed.
How fuel additive PEA looks like if anyone was curious
Some members of their oil forum sell their own formula with more PEA than techron at a fraction of the cost.
When you see the # of sales, I would imagine that it motivates big companies to stay competitive instead of shrinking ingredients like we're seeing today. If we did have access, buying something like this would be a good middle ground between exercising caution and getting the most effective product at an affordable cost.
Here's what the Chevron FAQ said in 2019 and what it says today:
2019:
2023:
2019:
2023:
You should fix your broken .period button on your keyboard
Looks like Chevron recommended up to 5 treatments per OCI as far back as 2011 when the concentration was 30-60%.
There's night and day difference between current day formulas and recommendations
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/654482-techron-and-oil-contamition-2.html
There's night and day difference between current day formulas and recommendations
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/654482-techron-and-oil-contamition-2.html
Here's a screenshot from a 3rd party who sells lots of Techron on the Chinese marketplace.
So it turns out these photos were from Chevron..
There are two types of PEA for fuel: propylene oxide-based PEA (“PO-PEA”) and butylene oxide-based PEA (“BO-PEA”)
In the Chevron study, they say using pure PO-PEA (at a ratio of 2mL PO-PEA/1000mL gas) will result in varnish.
From what I understand, antioxidants can solve this issue which is what the other brands of fuel cleaners have been doing.
Techron complete is BO-PEA and doesn't have this issue.
Preview version of the study if anyone else is interested:
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2020-01-2100/preview/
Shoutout to @Skid for letting us know about it
This is true but by creating that technical paper, Chevron is giving us an idea on why their product might be better if unadulterated PEA is used.
With this idea, I can conclude if an older engine has sludge - adding high amounts of PO-PEA might be a bad idea for the first oil change.
There are plenty of threads on this forum of people not following the manufacturers instructions when it comes to PEA and adding more than what is recommended.
Now we're seeing techron's dose go from 30-60% BO-PEA ----> 10-20% so if someone were to use the old dosage, it might seem dangerous.
My goal with this research is to figure out if the old manufacturer's dose is the optimal one for me.
So far I've discovered that direct injection has different recommendations than port injection.
This could be one of the reasons for the dose decrease over the years but my car is port so it may benefit more from the old dosage.
Research is knowledge and since covid - we see changes every day in all sectors so it's important to try to verify yourself what is optimal.
i think to add a 1 or 2 tsp of pea into oil, few hundred miles before oci.
this could be better than flushes.
Absolutely.
I guess i'm not certain what you're trying to accomplish. But I will try to add my 2 cents.
In this post I was trying to discern PEA dosing recommendations. At the time Techron's SDS said 25-35%. With a very high relative treat rate.
Now they dropped it to 10-20%PEA, which I can confirm is what the MSDS lists today, so it is more in-line with the others, but still higher.
Techron in VERY concentrated form??
I seem to recall a product...but I can't seem to find the exact same thing as I believe I remember. There was a Techron fuel system cleaner in a 32 oz bottle, but it really seems like it only took a few ounces for an entire gas tank...the bottles I find now in 32 oz say add 1 oz per gallon, so...
bobistheoilguy.com
I would feel safe using more of a maintenance dose regularly and not the full dose that Chevron Recommends.
IE: Full dose is 1oz/gallon. That worked out to 0.3oz PEA/gal with old formula, 0.15oz PEA/gal current. And current recommendations is 2x per oil change.
1/4 to 1/2 of that seems appropriate if you want to use it more often, depending on how often.
1/4 oz/gal = ~0.04oz PEA/gal, could use this every fill up probably
1/2 oz/gal = ~0.08oz PEA/gal, could use this 4x per oil change.
What I'm trying to accomplish is the proper maintenance dose and the proper cleaning dose for my car since the manufacturer's recommendation has not been consistent over the years.
From 2011 to at least 2019, techron recommended up to 5x per oil change.
In this time period, dosage was between 15%-60% PEA.
From 2011-2015: sds showed 15-40% PEA
2015-2016: sds showed 30-60% PEA
Your post was in 2021 and it showed 25-35%
We agree today it shows 10-20% PEA.
My hypothesis is it's been lowered for two reasons: Cost savings for them and the fact that many cars on the road are direct injection.
The Chinese seem to have a consensus that when it comes to pure PEA -
For a port injection engine:
-Maintenance dosage should be 0.13oz per gallon of fuel
-Cleaning dosage should be 0.38oz per gallon of fuel
For direct injection:
-Maintenance dosage should be 0.06oz per gallon of fuel
-Cleaning dosage should be 0.26oz per gallon of fuel
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The Chinese recommendation is vastly different than what you wrote, unless you have a direct injection engine and want to do maintenance dosages:
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From what I understood reading different threads on here, fuel distributors have a special version of Techron that is concentrated.
We have a screenshot from one facility showing a treat rate of 0.06oz/gallon
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/today-reaffirmed-my-trust-in-techron.350855/
We have another thread where someone mentions all grades of chevron gas has about 0.03-0.05oz of concentrated Techron per gallon
I'm guessing this is pure PEA with a negligible amount of antioxidants in it.
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So if I'm right about the concentrated version of techron being pure, then what some of us are currently adding is a maintenance dosage and not a cleaning dosage.
Based on old recommendations on when my car came out (2016):
IE: Full dose is 1oz/gallon.
In 2016, there was 0.3oz - 0.6oz of PEA per oz of Techron
So that's x10 what Chevron was putting in their fuel which sounds like a great cleaning dose.
vs
0.1-0.2oz PEA/gal current
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Just a heads up about your old post. Could be wrong but I think Techron marine and Techron powersports is PO-PEA and not BO-POA
Techron Complete has always had the number "01154100-5179P" in the sds for PEA under components
vs
Techron Marine
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I think you hit the nail on the head.
When I google the number from the Techron complete SDS "01154100-5179P" which should be BO-PEA
I get the SDS for Chevron's Vartech Industrial System Cleaner
"We have introduced Chevron VARTECH™ Industrial System Cleaner (ISC), a non-solvent-based product that can be added directly to oil during operation to clean varnish and sludge from the system before a scheduled oil change. In exhaustive lab testing against existing products, Chevron VARTECH™ ISC exhibited excellent seal compatibility, water/oil separability and oxidation performance. ."
https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_us/home/products/chevron-vartech-industrial-system-cleaner.html
from: https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/SDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=582426&docFormat=PDF
I buy the 4 pack of RedLine SL-1 on Amazon, and use a plastic 100mL graduated cylinder that I bought from McMaster-Carr that I keep in the car along with a bottle of the red line to add approximately 4.45 ml per gallon of gasoline that I'm going to put in the car just before I put gasoline in the car every time. It used to be written on the bottle a red line SL1 that that was the recommended dose. But when they redid the bottle label they left that part off of the bottle. I called red line up and spoke with them and mentioned that I had a 2016 Honda CRV with the direct injection 2.4 l normally aspirated engine and ask if that dose was still the appropriate dose to be adding to the fuel and they said yes that it was. I also used a full bottle for two tankfuls of fuel when it reached 30,000 miles. It says one bottle treats 20 gallons so I put a little bit more than a half bottle in for the first tank of fuel and then the remainder in the fill up for the second tank of fuel because one tank of fuel on that vehicle is 15.3 gallons. And I didn't want to make it any stronger than one bottle per 20 gallons. Going too strong can cause problems. There are YouTube videos that show that the computer for the engine of the Honda 2.4 l has programming that under certain running conditions it will spray the injector for a brief time when the intake valve is open. Then the intake valve then gets sprayed with fuel to help clean off any deposits. It also is true that the intake valve is continuously slightly rotated when in use so that when it does get sprayed with fuel a different section of it gets sprayed and that over time the entire intake valve gets cleaned by being sprayed with fuel. And having the red line SL1 in the fuel all the time at the recommended maintenance dose probably is going to help keep the intake valves pretty clean. And of course it keeps the injectors clean, and Redline SL1 is not just listed as a fuel system cleaner but it's also listed as a lubricant which probably is good for the two fuel pumps in the system, the low pressure and the high pressure.
Anyhow, when I put my Honda CRV in sport mode it really has a heck of a lot of get up and go. It's had that nice performance ever since I bought it with 19,700 miles on it and even now at 34,600 it still gets up and goes like that when I tell it to.
So my preference for a fuel system cleaner is the red line SL1.
Used disposable gloves when you work with the redline SL1. It's a very messy oil based product and once you get it on your hands it just spreads to anything else you touch and you have to wash your hands good to get it off. Unless you wear gloves. Also store the graduated cylinder upside down in several plastic bags because Redline SL1 is very hydroscopic and it will pull water right out of the air and if the cylinder is upright you will have about a half ounce or so of water pour out of the cylinder before you use it the next time.
Anyhow, when I put my Honda CRV in sport mode it really has a heck of a lot of get up and go. It's had that nice performance ever since I bought it with 19,700 miles on it and even now at 34,600 it still gets up and goes like that when I tell it to.
So my preference for a fuel system cleaner is the red line SL1.
Used disposable gloves when you work with the redline SL1. It's a very messy oil based product and once you get it on your hands it just spreads to anything else you touch and you have to wash your hands good to get it off. Unless you wear gloves. Also store the graduated cylinder upside down in several plastic bags because Redline SL1 is very hydroscopic and it will pull water right out of the air and if the cylinder is upright you will have about a half ounce or so of water pour out of the cylinder before you use it the next time.
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Techron doesn't sound in-line with RL Sl1 nor higher when it comes to cleaning.
Sl1 is 34.5% PEA
4.45mL / gallon = 0.05oz of PEA per gallon for maintenance
15oz / 20 gallon = 0.26oz of PEA per gallon for cleaning
RL's guidance is the same as what the Chinese recommend for DI:
Techron's BO-PEA isn't stronger than PO-PEA so I don't get why Techron's dose started going down post covid
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Ok, I guess outside of special circumstances I don't see the need for a "cleaning dose".
In the US and Canada we have Top Tier and minimum requirements for all gas.
And you've demonstrated caution should be used when using higher dosing than the manufacturer recommends.
In the US and Canada we have Top Tier and minimum requirements for all gas.
And you've demonstrated caution should be used when using higher dosing than the manufacturer recommends.
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