So then why not just one oil???

[ArthurArgentum]

Yes, as I mentioned above, an old can of Mobil 1 5W-20 from 1975 would have to be tested for KV100 and HTHS. Until then, nobody knows what it was, because it was never published since HTHS specs didn't exist in 1975. Post up the official test data on that 1975 oil, when we'll know.

Certainly, I understand your perspective. However, considering the viscosity of 7.5 cSt, it is reasonable to estimate that my numbers (2.6-2.8 cP) are in close proximity (who knows? )

 

[TiGeo]

Can Project Farm test this '70s M1? Really curious of how it will handle the NOACK Volatility cooking test as well as ice race.

 

[OVERKILL]

Certainly, I understand your perspective. However, considering the viscosity of 7.5 cSt, it is reasonable to estimate that my numbers (2.6-2.8 cP) are in close proximity (who knows? )

View attachment 157597

The oxidative thickening certainly stands out there!

HPL currently markets two PAO-based 5W-20's that don't have any VII (and will subsequently thicken in the same manner in service).
- Their Euro 5W-20, which is 8.7cSt @ 100C, has an HTHS of 3.27cP
- Their dexos 5W-20, which is 8.62cSt @ 100C, has an HTHS of 2.77cP

From what I remember, when we discussed it on here years ago, the OG Mobil 1 5W-20 was right around 3.0cP for HTHS, but I tagged Shannow earlier, since I think he was the one with the supporting documentation for that, I don't have it.

 

[ArthurArgentum]

Their Euro 5W-20, which is 8.7cSt @ 100C, has an HTHS of 3.27cP

It appears rather weird for PAO based. It is possible that they employed a substance exhibiting dilatancy or, alternatively, it could be an aberration or a Far-fetched measurement. Such behavior can only be observed in liquids with enhanced (for oils) density approaching 0.9 at a temperature of 150 degrees Celsius.

 

[OVERKILL]

It appears rather weird for PAO based. It is possible that they employed a substance exhibiting dilatancy or, alternatively, it could be an aberration or a Far-fetched measurement. Such behavior can only be observed in liquids with enhanced (for oils) density approaching 0.9 at a temperature of 150 degrees Celsius.

Density is 0.8637 if that helps, which is slightly, but still higher, than their other 5W-20 I mentioned, at 0.8616.

Now, I should note that it's obviously not straight PAO, they are also using AN's and esters in there, but that's not all that different from Mobil using 15% POE in the aforementioned vintage 5W-20.

Redline's 5W-20 is another higher HTHS example (though I don't believe it's VII free, but VI is 147, so low VII content) at 9.0cSt with an HTHS of 3.0cP.

Dave @High Performance Lubricants could confirm, but I believe it was tested multiple times, so it's not an aberration.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Certainly, I understand your perspective. However, considering the viscosity of 7.5 cSt, it is reasonable to estimate that my numbers (2.6-2.8 cP) are in close proximity (who knows? )

View attachment 157597

Thumbs up for digging up old data. As @OVERKILL pointed out, the KV100 to HTHS relationship depends a lot on the formulation. As pointed out, the no-VII HPL gives a better HTSH vs KV100 ratio due to no VIIs to shear at the high shear rate measurement.

Other oils like the standard off the shelf Valvoline, Castrol, Pennzoil, etc spec sheets will show a current day 5W-20 having a KV100 of around 8.3-8.4 cSt with an HTSH of around 2.6-2.7 cP. Those brands also show a 0W-16 having a KV100 around 6.8-7.0 cSt with a HTHS around 2.4 cP.

HPL's standard PCMO 5W-20 has a KV100 of 8.8 cSt and HTHS of 2.73 cP, and a VI of 150.

So without knowing the VII formulation of the old Mobil 1, or an actual HTHS test, it's hard to surmise what it actually was.

 

[buster]

No VII HPL 5w20 is nice for a fuel diluter.

 

[kschachn]

No VII HPL 5w20 is nice for a fuel diluter.

Yes but that’s only one of the aspects. The other is simple dilution of a fluid. You can only combat that with grade.

 

[OilUzer]

Since we are talking about more expensive oils, I consider Amsoil SS 10W-30 as another very good universal oil. At least for my area and type of cars I drive ...
iirc, very low or no vii & 4.1 Noack number.

Less expensive universal options:
My previous suggestion of M1 EP 10W-30 and baby if it's cold outside and 10W worries you, Valvoline EP 5W-30.

If it's real cold and 5W worries you, I get a block heater and don't rely on oil. Not a huge difference between 0W and 5W as far as J300 CCS and MRV. iirc, only 5 degrees Celsius difference.

Least expensive universal option:
Any 5W-30

 

[Shannow]

From what I recall, it was more around the 3.0cP or higher mark, more similar to the HTHS for HPL's current Euro "No-VII" 5W-20, which has an HTHS of 3.2cP. I think @Shannow posted a picture or something that showed it at one point.

You can blend a 5w-20 using PAO and no VII (hence HPL doing it).

This paper ???
https://oil-club.de/wcf/index.php?attachment/15338-sae-j300-hths-basisöle-pdf/

 

[chris719]

Density is 0.8637 if that helps, which is slightly, but still higher, than their other 5W-20 I mentioned, at 0.8616.

Now, I should note that it's obviously not straight PAO, they are also using AN's and esters in there, but that's not all that different from Mobil using 15% POE in the aforementioned vintage 5W-20.

Redline's 5W-20 is another higher HTHS example (though I don't believe it's VII free, but VI is 147, so low VII content) at 9.0cSt with an HTHS of 3.0cP.

Dave @High Performance Lubricants could confirm, but I believe it was tested multiple times, so it's not an aberration.

There are some thicker oils that appear to be slight outliers as well, though not as much as these 5W-20s. Red Line 5W-30 and Ravenol VMP both have 3.7 cP HTHS for 11.9 cSt KV100. That Motul Specific LL-01FE is interesting too with a 3.4 HTHS at 10.7 cSt.

 

[4WD]

For one thing, although HT/HS had not been invented yet the SAE grades have changed multiple times since 1975 and the film thickness is not comparable. The 20-grade oils of that time were not the same as today's in this respect. You're falling for a common misconception.

And the 10W40’s of that era sheared out of grade … Up until they oxidized of course - bringing in the 3k OCI revolution !!!

 

[CanAmAndMore]

New cars have warrantees. In the unlikely event of a motor failure-manufacturers have been know to ask for all kinds of documentation. I know of very few NEW vehicles that spec the oil the OP mentioned.

However-per my recent thread the vast majority of members on this forum drive cars older than 5 years old. So-it's not applicable to them.

I have only two things new enough to be under warranty, a car, and a quad, and both ask for 0w40 oil to be used.

 

[CanAmAndMore]

About 90% of this went right over my head, I will admit to that.
But still appreciate your feedback everyone.
When I started this, thought it was a simple question, not a controversial one.


Does anyone know who makes the actual oil that can am then labels as their own 0w40 synthetic they recommend for the 850 atv?

 

[OVERKILL]

This paper ???
https://oil-club.de/wcf/index.php?attachment/15338-sae-j300-hths-basisöle-pdf/

No, though that's a great one, I recall you having the specs for the original M1 5W-20 from the 70's at one point.

 

[OVERKILL]

About 90% of this went right over my head, I will admit to that.
But still appreciate your feedback everyone.
When I started this, thought it was a simple question, not a controversial one.


Does anyone know who makes the actual oil that can am then labels as their own 0w40 synthetic they recommend for the 850 atv?

Well, they don't make it obvious, here's the SDS:
https://xpslubricants.com/media/safety_data_sheets/779139_EN.pdf

 

[chris719]

I have a delightful picture in mind, featuring answers to questions compiled in a "science" magazine, courtesy of Mobil. Although it may be a bit dated, it never fails to bring a smile to one's face. Allow me to share an amusing anecdote from Mobil's history. When Mobil made the decision to transform its European oil, Mobil SHC (1973), and introduce Mobil 1 (1975), the result was an intriguing blend of PAO with 15% esters. This concoction possessed a viscosity of 5W-20, which caused quite a stir and prompted apprehension among many.
However, let's not hastily conclude that I advocate for 0W-20 oil across the board. There are certain vehicles, such as Ferraris, motorcycles, as well as aircraft piston engines and locomotives, that demand more SAE . Nevertheless, for the majority of applications, 0W-20 typically suffices quite admirably.
For those who may feel uneasy or desire a sense of reassurance, exploring the availability of a slightly less common oil with a viscosity of 0W-30..

I do wonder why Porsche and GM (C8) have settled on 0W-40s for their flagship cars sometimes. It seems like a strong 5W-30 or 40 would be better almost everywhere other than Siberia. The HPL No VII Euro 5W-30, Ravenol VMP, etc. have about the same HTHS as M1 FS 0W-40 and presumably far less VM.

I just mentioned this in another thread, but the Porsche M1 ESP X3 0W-40 in particular has a really high VI of 204 and 14.1 cSt KV100, 3.8 cP HTHS. Is this primarily to improve fuel economy during warm-up in the test cycles? I guess it makes sense viewed through the lens of having one oil for all regions (0W) and getting losses as low as possible in fuel economy tests.

 

[Bailes1992]

Agreed, I think a C3 oil is just about as universal as it gets.

The only vehicle of ours I'm slightly nervous about trying it in is our Classic Mini with it's engine oil system shared with the gearbox. But then I think oils have improved hell of a lot since the car was designed in the 50's.

 

[ArthurArgentum]

Is this primarily to improve fuel economy during warm-up in the test cycles?

Yes, it's very likely or almost certain.. In general. However, German motor manufacturers place a significant emphasis on viscosity.
It was the Germans who introduced many limitations in Noack (made in Germany) / VII SSI / HTHS, and they have always regarded viscosity highly. On the other hand, most top PCMO manufacturers, including the main additive manufacturers and formulation developers, are predominantly US(UK) companies. They approach the composition of the final oil differently. But in this particular case, it's all about catering to individual preferences at a price.
If you desire a versatile and easy-to-start oil with a robust, stable polymer and high viscosity, no problem - Infineum and XOM are ready to deliver.

 

[ArthurArgentum]

I recall you having the specs for the original M1 5W-20 from the 70's at one point.

I firmly believe it should be impossible for Mobil 1 of 1975-78. As you can observe, pure modern base PAO oil cannot possess such a characteristic. Considering M1 kinematic viscosity at 100 degrees Celsius around 7.4 cSt and even with 15% ester content, 2.8 cP is the maximum value one would expect.