Just why is synthetic oil so better?

[like a rock]

Now we are in the dawn of the new sm oil's and they look like the will do just fine. So now no matter how good the new sm oil's are doing and how the sl oils did in the past even when providing better wear numbers our panel of experts keep saying that synthetic oil is so better no matter what the situation. Take stop and go driving for example where fuel dilution and condensation is a problem. Why would a synthetic be so better in this situation?
The dang stuff is going to suffer tbn depletion just like a sm dino oil will. How can we say that synthetic oil offers better wear protection in this case when very short drain intervals are needed?

My point is that synthetic oil will work no better in some situations like mentioned above. But yet when we see a good uoa on dino oil and some people say that synthetic oil is not needed the remarks start flying around that thinking that way is dreaming. Big oil companies are out to make dollars and small synthetic blenders are out to make even more dollars. So I challenge the experts to explain just why synthetic oil is so superior in every application. It is superior in many applications but not in all. So prove to me guys just why these high dollar oils are so much better in every application. If proven they might be worth what they cost. Some people are just sick and tired of high prices and no better results. I guess it just how you value a dollar.

 

[TheFuror]

quote:

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Originally posted by like a rock:
Now we are in the dawn of the new sm oil's and they look like the will do just fine. So now no matter how good the new sm oil's are doing and how the sl oils did in the past even when providing better wear numbers our panel of experts keep saying that synthetic oil is so better no matter what the situation...My point is that synthetic oil will work no better in some situations like mentioned above. But yet when we see a good uoa on dino oil and some people say that synthetic oil is not needed the remarks start flying around that thinking that way is dreaming....

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My take on synthetic oil is this: in the short run you will probably not see any better wear numbers than dino for normal driving (Blackstone alludes to this on their website).

However, I think synthetics will keep the insides of your engine substantially cleaner and I suspect better longevity will result from this. In this I mean after 100K miles or more.

The scenario that generally seems to be agreed upon is 1) dino with short OCI; or 2) synthetic with longer changes. Either way you are probably spending the same amount of do-re-me.

Personally, I think life is too short to worry if "remarks start flying around", when you take a position, so pick which you like and feel happy.

After all, I do synthetic and short OCI's, which just about everybody around here seems to think is dumb, so there you have it....

Bob W.

 

[sgtgeek]

No argument here....
I think the line between the two has blurred for sure.....I also believe there is applications for synthetics and for dino....My high performance GTO gets synthetics for protection under extremes and performance......daily driver right now is on Havoline.....both are getting great service I feel....If folks want to take their 4 cylinder grocery getter out to 15K OCI's by all means they need a good synthetic....If 5K OCI's are no problem then they need a good dino...not difficult in my mind at all....now folks that just make a blanket statement (and there are a lot) that "if you don't use synthetics you don't love your car"....are...well.....silly people

 

[TR3-2001SE]

I think synthetics are still tops for keeping the engine internals clean. My Miata looks like new under the valve cover after 60,000 miles of synthetic. My honda gets dino as hard to justify the expense on a grocery getter. I think the jury is still out of the SM oils but the SL dinos are great oils. Chevron 10w-30 doesn't shear even after 6000 mile changes. Hard to beat it for the price.

 

[ruking77]

I think it is pretty true that not all conventional and synthetic oils are created equal. Some are even synthetic "synthetic" oil!!?? Having said that, conventional oils have come a very long way. On a 2004 Civic with factory fill conventional oil (made to Honda specifications by EM: their product being Superflo 5w20), both, the UOA's posted on this web site and Honda OEM, recommend and stand behind 10,000 OCI's, with every other oil filter change!!! (20,000 miles) When the 10,000 mile interval is due, I will change/switch to Mobil One 0w20 and later 5w20.

After the meager warranty period, I will run 15,000-20,000 mile OCI's. I have been doing 15,000 mile OCI's on other vehicles for a few test miles. (694,000 miles: 47 changes to 139 changes @ 5,000 miles vs 232 changes for 3,000 miles OCI's) and to boot NO SLUDGE ISSUES at all!

I run 25,000 OCI's on a TDI application with Mobil One Truck and SUV. (aka Delvac One 5w40)

These are the "GOOD OLE DAY's" in vehicle lubrication!!!!

[ April 04, 2005, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]

 

[unDummy]

It comes down to driving style, engine type, and owners budget.

Since there aren't too many SM oils that have already gone 100k+ miles, the verdict is still out.
My synthetically oiled engines are spotless even with 200k+ miles on them. Plus, they run perfectly.
I haven't seen this with too many mineral oiled high mileage vehicles.
I've scrubbed many rocker/valve covers on cars that had 3k/3month mineral oil OCIs.
And, I haven't cleaned one yet that lived on a diet of synthetic with reasonable 5-8k/6month OCIs.

Also, engine issues might be less noticeable with synthetic oil.
All those "sludge monsters" out there have a better survival chance since the synthetics tolerate the higher temps better.
I've also seen what toasted turbos look like. Not that it wouldn't happen with a synthetic, but its less likely.

I look at it this way. What do you want, an oil that can clean it owns deposits, or one that doesn't leave any behind to begin with?

 

[sully]

I'm totally opposite,you would have a hard time convincing me to use dino rather than synthetic. Blends are another story. Wear numbers are not an issue as we have seen some excellent UOA's with the SL/SM dino oils. Deposits are my main concern and I believe synthetics are superior in this aspect. IMO

 

[buster]

quote:

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Deposits are my main concern

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I agree, it's not the small +/-'s in wear metals we see, it's keeping the engine clean is what matters most. I've been reading up lately on Mg and it's effect on hard deposits.

 

[JHZR2]

Typically synthetics will provide more cleaning inside of an engine and keep engines clean.

Typically synthetics have provided excellent protection without the need of to much of an additive package - so the adds in there give above and beyond protection moreso than with dino oils. Good performance of dino oils seems much more dependent on the additive package.

Synthetics have been known to be more shear stable over longer periods of time. I believe that most of the sludge and junk in an engine is because of very hot dino oil being sheared severely. This doesnt mean that the same thing cant happen to synthetics, but its tougher to do and occurs at a lesser extent.

Synthetics I believe deal with frequent startup and shut down, short trips, fuel dilution, etc. better than dino oils.

Synthetics hold TBN better/ longer, IMO regardless of additive package. My father's 96 MB E300D, a diesel, where TBN is more important due to the sulfur in the fuel that as a result gets to the oil - is 10 at nearly 8000 miles on delvac 1. Would delvac 1300S be able to run that interval? Sure. But Ill also bet that its TBN will be lower by that mileage. D1300S probably has a better overall additive package comapred to delvac 1 too.

Ive seen under valve covers and oil pans that have well over 100k, all on dino, and there is no sludge, minimal varnish, etc. Ive seen synthetics that were used in an engine with 60k that has as much varnish on stuff as a dino filled engine at 100k+. However synthetics do keep things cleaner in sludge prone engines like some toyota engines.

This stuff is basded upon my findings and experiences. You are exactly right - sm makes some major changes and the difference may not be as noticable. Group III oils supposedly have most of the high-temperature stability of PAO synthetics, and so a lot of the breakdown, deposit formation, sludge issues, etc may begin to decrease, since supposedly most dino oils need to have better group II+ and group III oils to obtain the correct properties. Additionally, a lot of the advanced additives that likely can do more than just take the place of Zinc and Phosphorous are now showing up in oils too. Since more and more additives are multiple use these days, were getting the same amount of many traditional adds, as well as more of the newer, hi-tec adds, that just add on even more.

Does that mean that dinos will be as good as synthetics? Probably not. But the gap surely has decreased, which was surely one of the main purposes of making a new oil spec - to achieve what everyone knew could be done by making it required to be widespread so it could be achieved cost-effectively.

I dont think that youll ever get the metal-clinging and surface bonding abilities of synthetics with dino. Does it make a difference? Who knows, well have to see, and most of it depends on the engine and driving profile anyway.

And, one way or another, the optimal oil is VERY engine and driving profile specific. For example, I have never seen a synthetic oil that produces as good results in a GM 4.3L v6 - as a good dino, like pennzoil. In that engine, surely the additive package is moe important than the base oil. In other vehicles, the resiliency of the base oils, coupled with only the ability to have adequate TBN retention and detergency is all thats necessary to obtain excellent results with long drain intervals.

One thing is for sure - any oil will work well, so long as its changed at a reasonable interval and the engine is driven reasonably, with gentle driving when cold, no jackrabbit starts, etc. It always has been such in fact.

The key is that we have the tool of oil analysis, and even better - the ability to compare with similar vehicles and engines on this site. One oil isnt the best for all engines in all conditions. Any oil will work well in most situations, with minimal issues short term, even if overused.

All I know is that in my S10, pennzoil dino seems to be the best. In our 94 previa, M1 10w-30 gave 8ppm iron in 13k miles. My mother's 97 plymouth breeze, which gets driven 5 blocks 6 times a day and not much else shows wear almost as good as a highway driven car on dino oil. In the E30 BMW 325i engine - chevron delo has provided the best UOAs Ive seen for that engine. The results are mixed, dino vs. synthetic. But one thing is for certain - synthetic oils could be used in any of them, at their respective drain intervals and profiles without issue. For some, like the previa, the dino surely would have been sheared out of grade and TBN be too low.

These ae my thoughts. Others may disagree, but this is how I see it. This will surely be an interesting thread. I look forward to reading it.

JMH

 

[TooSlick]

like a rock,

You are missing the point entirely ....

Large oil companies make much more money having you use cheap petroleum oils and greases and changing them frequently. They make the vast majority of their profits selling gasoline and diesel fuels. So the very idea of fuel efficient, extended drain synthetic lubricants rounds counter to all their business interests.

Synthetic lubricants and greases are inherently superior products. They would have taken over the market decades ago where it not for the profit motives of oil companies. When I started using Amsoil back in 1978 and saw how well it worked, I thought it would only be a matter of a few years before everyone was using the stuff. I went from changing oil every 2000-3000 miles to changing oil once a year and never looked back.

As an undergraduate engineering student, I was blown away by how well even the first generation synthetic lubes like Amsoil, All Proof, Ultrachem and Mobil 1 performed. The seminal article on synlubes appeared in a 1976 copy of Popular Science magazine. I suggest finding an old issue and reading it....

Synthetic oils are significantly better than they were even five years ago and will soon be required for many applications. You are already seeing this with automatic transmission fluids, gear lubes and sealed for life wheel bearings using synthetic grease. All the new AC compressors also use a PAG (poly akyl glycol) based synthetic oil in them. My Audis use a synthetic power steering fluid in them as well....

Engine oils will not be far behind in this transition from conventional oils.... Just take a look at high end, European engines which all spec synthetic lubes and come this way from the factory....

In five years the least expensive oil you can buy will be a blend of 70% Group III and 30% conventional oil, or 30% PAO and 70% conventional oil.....Something like the Mobil 7500 oils or the Schaeffers S7000, synthetic blends. These two types of synthetic blends provide comparable performance in key European engine tests like the VW "T-4" high temp oxidation test.

Tooslick

 

[AndyH]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
The seminal article on synlubes appeared in a 1976 copy of Popular Science magazine. I suggest finding an old issue and reading it.

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Is this the article you're referring to?

http://www.getahelmet.com/jeeps/tech/syntheticoil/

 

[Colt]

To me,the biggest advantages of synthetic over dino is winter start ups and longer OCI's.

 

[Schmoe]

JH and tooslick...
Excellent points. Some even I hadn't considered.

 

[AndyH]

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyH:

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
The seminal article on synlubes appeared in a 1976 copy of Popular Science magazine. I suggest finding an old issue and reading it.

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Is this the article you're referring to?

http://www.getahelmet.com/jeeps/tech/syntheticoil/

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Nevermind, I found someone on eBay selling a copy of the April 1976 issue of Popular Science magazine...I bought a copy

 

[TooSlick]

Schmoe,

"The only constant in life is change".

TS

 

[nelsonlwn]

One other thing to consider:

Evidence on this board suggests that wear temporarily increases after an oil change. This evidence is based upon the improvement in wear (PPM) up to some point which seems to be around 8K without an oil filter change and 13-15K with one. So overall wear over the life of the engine MAY be reduced with extented OCIs..again assuming you have oil that can handle extended OCI without causing other problems. Synthetics are it!

 

[like a rock]

But TooSlick you are not proving that synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil in all situations. What about short trips and high rates of condensation with fuel dilution possible? When these factors are present you are going to deplete the tbn no matter what type of oil you use, and just as rapid with synthetic oil. It all boils down to value for the dollar. To gain the full advantages of synthetic oil I think you need bypass filtration to help the extended drains. Who wants to pay 6 bucks for a quart of oil and have it thicken a grade especially when it claims to hold down oxidation. I know all the publications that talk about synthetic oil have mostly good information but sometimes it is only assumed information. The bottom line is modern dino oil will hold up as well as synthetic oil short intervals but not long intervals.


You make a point that in five years that all oil will be seventy percent group 3 with the filler maybe group 2 or pao. These oils will have reduce phos. and zinc. Where does that leave amsoil and redline with much to much phos. and zinc. If not api certified they will have trouble gaining market share. The bottom line is current hydrocracked dino oil is giving synthetic oil a run for it.

 

[TooSlick]

The severity of service doesn't matter in relative terms....You will still be able to go at least three times as long with an ACEA A3/B4 rated, PAO/Ester synthetic under those conditions. I've seen several police fleets that run 15,000 miles with Amsoil and they do lots of idling as well as very high speed driving.

A 12 TBN, PAO/Ester synthetic will last much longer than a 6-7 TBN conventional oil, no matter what the conditions.

TS

 

[mikemc]

I have heard many times on this board that synthetic will keep an engine's internals cleaner than a good dino that is changed at short intervals. Is there some proof to this, any actual side-by-side comparisons?

 

[tenderloin]

But TooSlick you are not proving that synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil in all situations.


No, not in all situations. If the car is stored....well maybe not even then LOL

It is all about what you want to pay and value/perceived value. For a few bucks a qt extra, synthetic oil is the way to go for me. I like the extra protection/cleaning/extended drain intervals that it provides.

Considering the cost of today's automobiles, it is a no brainer...for me.

Besides I got all the Pep Boys Mobil 1 at Buy 3 get 3 free I could ever need, and topped it off with $1-$2 qt. Havoline and Maxlife synthetic oil from Autozone clearance. Even picked up some new Pennzoil Platinum synthetic for under $2 a qt with rebate..so I have the best of both worlds. Top quality at a low price