So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
^^^ So you've mentioned several times. And there have been Purolator anecdotes here even recently showing no tears too. Just as there are EG and TG anecdotes showing uncovered endcaps with open gaps. But the endcaps are designed to cover the centertube.

Note neither Ed or I said all fiber endcaps exhibit the gap phenomena. However is does exist as has been posted and your words state end caps and bypass to be an area of concern.


I just took another look at the PH30 I cut open for my friend. The end caps do slightly cover the ends of the metal center tube. On this particular specimen, the end caps are nice and flat, the center tube and end cap holes are aligned well on both ends, and there are impressions in each end cap indicating a good seal around the hole on each end cap.

Sure, there might be instances showing warped end caps and potential leak paths, but those filters were obviously ran way too long and/or were subjected to oil with water contamination, etc based on the pleats also showing major warping. This particular PH30 was only ran ~3500 miles and showed zero signs of pleat or end cap warping.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Why doesn't fram just stop being so darn cheap and add metal end caps to the OCOD and end this discussion forever??

Are you saying that the quantity of unfiltered oil going through that gap is a problem?

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Why doesn't fram just stop being so darn cheap and add metal end caps to the OCOD and end this discussion forever??

Are you saying that the quantity of unfiltered oil going through that gap is a problem?


Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Why doesn't fram just stop being so darn cheap and add metal end caps to the OCOD and end this discussion forever??

Are you saying that the quantity of unfiltered oil going through that gap is a problem?


Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!


I don't think its fair to assume the only reason they use the fiber is to be cheap. It is a unique design. If fiber was the cheapest route, you can bet other filter manufactures would be doing the same. They all go to the lowest bidder depending on their applications.

Your RP filter isn't made out of some tungsten alloy gold plated material.. It is the cheapest material they could find.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: jk_636
Why doesn't fram just stop being so darn cheap and add metal end caps to the OCOD and end this discussion forever??

Are you saying that the quantity of unfiltered oil going through that gap is a problem?


Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!


I don't think its fair to assume the only reason they use the fiber is to be cheap. It is a unique design. If fiber was the cheapest route, you can bet other filter manufactures would be doing the same. They all go to the lowest bidder depending on their applications.

Your RP filter isn't made out of some tungsten alloy gold plated material.. It is the cheapest material they could find.



Yes. The only reason fram uses cardboard is because it is the cheapest material available that has any resembelance of functionality and it helps lower their cost of manufacture. All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH! They would instantly regain a plethora of the consumer base that cares more about their vehicles than to use filters made of construction paper.


And by the way, I use many filters, all of which contain metal end caps...

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: jk_636

Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!


You better get after all the other manufacturer's too then:

Originally Posted By: Motorking
WOW, the end cap debate goes on and and on and on. I guess the 25 yr WIX marketing campaign of steel vs fiber end caps has really brainwashed alot of people. The one good thing it did do is prevent them from ever being able to use this technology. Lets look at the facts-
FRAM has made and sold 2 billion filters this way without issue. Honda and Subaru use this technology OE (built by FRAM). Bentley uses it on 400,000$ cars, made by Mahle. Nissan uses it OE (made by filtech). GM uses electrostatically welded felt end caps (FRAM/Champ Labs)OE.
Toyota's current OE filters have no end caps at all, just the ends of the pleats woven together (unsure who makes those). Mann and Hummel have several cartridge filters that use nothing but plastisol glue for end caps. Mann is also now making Porsche OE filters with the electrostatically welded end caps. The reality is it is technology that works, and now that we no longer have patent rights, seems the industry is moving that way. No matter what anyone thinks, if a filter made by any major US manufacturer caused an engine failure, the filter maker would be on the hook plain and simple. As always, I welcome your questions [email protected]

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH!


I was wondering when we'd see "Wallah" on BITOG. This one's for you jk:

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: jk_636

Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!


You better get after all the other manufacturer's too then:

Originally Posted By: Motorking
WOW, the end cap debate goes on and and on and on. I guess the 25 yr WIX marketing campaign of steel vs fiber end caps has really brainwashed alot of people. The one good thing it did do is prevent them from ever being able to use this technology. Lets look at the facts-
FRAM has made and sold 2 billion filters this way without issue. Honda and Subaru use this technology OE (built by FRAM). Bentley uses it on 400,000$ cars, made by Mahle. Nissan uses it OE (made by filtech). GM uses electrostatically welded felt end caps (FRAM/Champ Labs)OE.
Toyota's current OE filters have no end caps at all, just the ends of the pleats woven together (unsure who makes those). Mann and Hummel have several cartridge filters that use nothing but plastisol glue for end caps. Mann is also now making Porsche OE filters with the electrostatically welded end caps. The reality is it is technology that works, and now that we no longer have patent rights, seems the industry is moving that way. No matter what anyone thinks, if a filter made by any major US manufacturer caused an engine failure, the filter maker would be on the hook plain and simple. As always, I welcome your questions [email protected]


I really dont care that much. I just choose not to use them. The thread was why Fram gets a bad rap. I was adding my

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: jk_636
All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH!


I was wondering when we'd see "Wallah" on BITOG. This one's for you jk:



Been saving that have we? Now that it is out of your system we can continue. That was almost as absurd as using cardboard for endcaps. See what I did there, brought us back on topic

 

[Dallas69]

I was not aware that there is only one way to make filter
I guess Fram needs to be told so they can recall millions of filters that thay have made and have been successfully used for decades

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I was not aware that there is only one way to make filter
I guess Fram needs to be told so they can recall millions of filters that thay have made and have been successfully used for decades


While I'm writing them a strongly worded letter perhaps we could discuss something more pleasant. How did those Cowboys play today

 

[DoubleWasp]

Cardboard end caps? What about filters that come in cardboard boxes? What's with that cheap [censored]? I will only use Bosch D+, because it comes in a finely heat seam sealed crystal clear plastic product package.

I mean, if cardboard is what they're putting on the outside of the filter, what the [censored] is on the inside of it??????

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Cardboard end caps? What about filters that come in cardboard boxes? What's with that cheap [censored]? I will only use Bosch D+, because it comes in a finely heat seam sealed crystal clear plastic product package.

I mean, if cardboard is what they're putting on the outside of the filter, what the [censored] is on the inside of it??????

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: jk_636

Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!


So Why is fiber bad? Why? What is so bad about it? Can't be because it's paper or cellulose, cause that's what the filter is made out of. So what is it?

It's one thing to say it's bad, but WHY??? And "I don't like it" is not an answer. Just because we don't like something doesn't make it bad in the absence of data showing it is bad.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: jk_636

Im saying that if they used metal end caps, this point would be mute since the ONLY argument that anyone ever has either for or against the Fram OCOD is those blasted end caps. It isn't filtration, micron rating, media etc. Its just about the endcaps. Just stop cheaping out, put metal end caps on them and move on!


So Why is fiber bad? Why? What is so bad about it? Can't be because it's paper or cellulose, cause that's what the filter is made out of. So what is it?

It's one thing to say it's bad, but WHY??? And "I don't like it" is not an answer. Just because we don't like something doesn't make it bad in the absence of data showing it is bad.


This thread started off as the discussion of why Fram filters get a bad rap. Obviously the OP has acknowledged the fact that they do, in fact, get a bad rap. Im trying to explain why many out there dislike their lower end filter lines.

 

[SlipperyPete]

How much cheaper is a fiber end cap than a metal end cap?

 

[sxg6]

I almost brought up something mentioned in the motorking quote, but decided not to, until now. These crazy toyota filters don't even have end caps, just what appears to be glue acting as a partial end cap. These aren't the only filters like this either.

https://parts.olathetoyota.com/filter-compare/tacoma-standard-oem-oil-filter-explode-left.jpg

https://parts.olathetoyota.com/filter-compare/tacoma-standard-oem-oil-filter-explode-right.jpg

At the end of the day, I really don't care what oil filters people use. I simply think that the fiber end cap argument is a very weak one.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
How much cheaper is a fiber end cap than a metal end cap?


How much cheaper is a metal end cap than a fiber end cap?

Everyone is speculating.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: jk_636

Yes. The only reason fram uses cardboard is because it is the cheapest material available that has any resembelance of functionality and it helps lower their cost of manufacture. All they would have to do is use metal instead of cardboard and WALLAH! They would instantly regain a plethora of the consumer base that cares more about their vehicles than to use filters made of construction paper.


And by the way, I use many filters, all of which contain metal end caps...

Are you basing your assumptions off of your gut feeling? Lol.

 

[KCJeep]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people are perfectly content to pump their precious engine's life blood oil through a thin paper based media to filter it, but if Fram dares to hold that same thin paper based filtering media in place with a much thicker, stronger and rigid paper based endcap they will scream foul. Makes absolutely no sense at all.